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The Empty Hearse » Has Mary killed Johnlock? » January 23, 2014 12:16 am

The first part of John's conversation with Mrs. Hudson, telling her about Mary, would, taken out of context, imply he had lost someone he was in a romantic relationship with.

"I'm moving on. I've met someone," is phrasing used by people who lose a spouse or partner, and then meet a potential new romantic interest. And it implies that he couldn't have had the relationship with Mary while also living / working with Sherlock.

It's Canon » You'd think this picture was drawn by Johnlock-minded fans... » January 22, 2014 3:34 am

In fact, the picture here was an illustration that ran with "The Illustrious Client" when that story was first published in The Strand magazine. Which is why I'm posting here...it's more or less canon.

As the story tells us at the beginning, Holmes and Watson are attending a turkish bath house. (And those in fact had a reputation as a meeting place for gay men.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Illustrious_Client

But no matter which (if any) "ship" you tend to board, that picture looks like they're in bed together.

It's Canon » Find the original & post other nods to the canon (merged topic) » January 22, 2014 3:31 am

holmes23 wrote:

Be wrote:

I read The Illustrious Client yesterday and found this quote which reminds me of Sherlock and John and their last conversation before the fall in the lab.

 There was a curious secretive streak in the man which led to many dramatic effects, but left even his closest friend guessing as to what his exact plans might be. He pushed to an extreme the axiom that the only safe plotter was he who plotted alone. I was nearer him than anyone else, and yet I was always conscious of the gap between.
 

 
Hence one more reason to explain away Sherlock's action of not taking John into confidence in the final episode. In Final Problem, SH didn't plot that much and keep Watson in dark about them. Of course he made Watson believe that he's dead. But they were not that much premeditated.

In the above quote, Watson is accepting Holmes' is secretiveness because he feels secure that he is the closest to Holmes of anyone, and that if Holmes is a little less secretive with anyone, it will be with him. In canon, Holmes didn't tell Watson he wasn't dead...but absolutely the ONLY person who did know was Mycroft. I think a big part of the issue for John in BBC- Empty Hearse is that a LOT of people knew but NOT him.
 

The Empty Hearse » Reunion - do you think... » January 22, 2014 3:26 am

It has occurred to me how REALLY bad Sherlock's timing was. Not just in interrupting the dinner, but the particular day/moment he picked to come back. 

Now, obviously he wasn't going to reveal himself before he'd finished with Moriarty's network.

BUT it does seem like John stayed in the "denial," phase of grief for a long time, and maybe even had (what he thought were) fantasies about Sherlock not being dead. He really seemed, at the beginning of TEH, to be at the very beginning of moving on. So just a little sooner and he would have more readily picked up where they left off.

The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 22, 2014 3:21 am

I have thought about that conversation between John and Sherlock at thte end of TEH a lot, because it didn't really make much sense to me at first. Sherlock wanted to tell John how he did it very early on in the episode, but was interrupted by John not wanting to know. So why wouldn't he tell him later, once John had calmed down? Now I've come to think that in this last scene at Baker Street, John didn't actually ask Sherlock to tell him how he did it. He doesn't really put a question mark at the end of his sentence, but just quietly states "you're not going to tell me how youd did it". I now have come to the conclusion that this is actually John telling Sherlock NOT to tell him how he actually did it, so they could just pretend it was a miracle Sherlock had provided for John when he asked for it (or two years after he had asked for it, more precisely). I now to see this scene as an understanding between John and Sherlock that to them, Sherlock's return would always stay a miracle, like a gift from Sherlock to John. 

I like the way LightPurple thinks! Traditionally (in every adaptation but this one), Watson was always kind of in awe of Holmes. He is usually played as viewing Holmes coming back as being a miracle and he's focused on being glad he's back.

I don't think John's "I don't care how you faked it," line was just something said in the heat of anger and not meant...I think he genuinely doesn't care. And consider if that Sherlock's not being dead (dare we say, rising from the dead?) was a miracle, it was less about lying and scheming on Sherlock's part. John can think of it as "miraculously not dead," instead of "pretending to be dead and lying to me." Does that make sense?

Or maybe, John doesn't want to think about the implications, things like "how did a body happen to be available"...as we discussed.

And remember: even if the solution we see him tell Anderson was the true one, that does not require that the conversation with Anderson really happe

Character Analysis » Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy » January 21, 2014 2:28 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

belis wrote:

I'm not convinsed that John has PTSD. From what we see on screen there is not enough there for him to meet the diagnostic criteria. He might have been much worse before though and we first see him when he is already partially recovered. So I'm not going to question his diagnosis to much. 

In fact, John seems addicted to excitement...which is the main reason he puts up with Sherlock...you would think someone with PTSD would shy away from working with Sherlock because it would bring back fear, etc.

John does have a quick temper and a tendency to resort to violence at the drop of a hat.(In canon, he THREATENS to beat up someone who hires a hit on Holmes (or perhaps "offers to" because he says it to Holmes)...in this series, he punches out someone who calls Sherlock "weird." I don't know if the medical profession would call that psychopathy, but it would be scary if you LIVED with that person.
 

That would be anger management issues. :-)  I always think it's interesting how often we tend to gloss over John's violent tendencies. And his very close to the surface, ever present anger. 

"Gloss over," is a very good phrase... in most other adaptations we're led to see Watson as very normal except for his willingness to live with and love Holmes despite Holmes' eccentricities. They try to convey a sense of "How do you put up with Sherlock Holmes."

In fact, there are adaptations, and fan fics, particularly by Johnlockers, that idealize Watson and present Holmes loving Watson for saving or normalizing him, but here, we have to wonder how many people would put up with JOHN. Maybe Sherlock's Asperger's (or whatever) helps him not be freaked out or offended by John.

Here, it seems to be more Sherlock saving or humanizing John than the other way around. John lacked an interest in life before he met Sherlock, whereas Sherlock already had the interest, because he already had his work. He didn

The Reichenbach Fall » You see so many things from this episode differently after "Hearse"... » January 21, 2014 2:24 am

Someone predicted there would be a parting of the ways at the end of Season 3 "because there are bound to be major trust issues on both sides." Has John done anything to make Sherlock trust him less?

You know, I wonder if even Moffit and Gattis (and the writers)

1) know which theory is really correct.

2) had decided on how it would be done while they were writing / filming Reichenbach

3) knew when they were writing / filming Reichenbach that Sherlock had the upper hand and Moriarty's whole "destroy Sherlock's reputation" plan was all part of Sherlock's plan.

...or if they decided those things later?

Character Analysis » What is it about Sherlock Holmes? » January 21, 2014 2:19 am

Both as originally conceived in canon and here, that makes people like John Watson, and other fans, in and out of universe get so...into him?

In Victorian England, his disregard for social convention and tendency to snark at authority figures were genuine novelties, but don't we see a lot of that today? Certainly there are a lot of characters in crime shows who have dysfunctional relationships, are loners,are traumatized, are arrogant, break the rules, (or are those characters that way because they're taking off on Holmes...such as House?) And we always hear that arrogance and bad social skills are common among real-life young people.

And I feel his meanness is racheted up from canon. There are insults to those around him in canon, but he doesn't seem to be constantly mouthing off and putting people down the way he does in this series.

The tube scene in TEH is the best concerete example I can think of: the original Holmes insulted Watson's deductive and writing skills, but he would NEVER have led Watson into danger and laughed about it. He could genuinely freak out over the thought of any harm to his Watson.

And although he played dead for a couple of years, he claims it was a spur-of-the-moment decision, that he went to the Falls expecting to die. He didn't have a whole gambit that he concealed from John.

Or maybe I'm feeling that he's meaner because this John minds it more than the original did?

And I while understand that Moffit and Gattis wanted to give Sherlock villains who could genuinely challenge him, it seems like he has many encounters with people who approach being as smart as he is, so his brilliance does seem to stand out as much?

It seems like Mycroft directs a lot of what he does, making Mycroft the main genius, in a way.

Are Sherlock's methods still "cutting edge?"

Didn't John refer to him once as a "charasmatic madman?"

What is it that makes THIS Sherlock  "the best and wisest man [ John has] ever known" (and that he still feels that way

Character Analysis » Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy » January 21, 2014 1:57 am

belis wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

We know John has PTSD...does Sherlock have it? As I saw the beginning of TEH, it occurred to me that, while PTSD is common for those who have served in the military (and Sherlock has not actually served), he has certainly been through enough experiences that could give a person PTSD...and if he hadn't before the hiatus, he has now. Wasn't he actually being tortured?

I'm not convinsed that John has PTSD. From what we see on screen there is not enough there for him to meet the diagnostic criteria. He might have been much worse before though and we first see him when he is already partially recovered. So I'm not going to question his diagnosis to much. 

In fact, John seems addicted to excitement...which is the main reason he puts up with Sherlock...you would think someone with PTSD would shy away from working with Sherlock because it would bring back fear, etc.

John does have a quick temper and a tendency to resort to violence at the drop of a hat (In canon, he THREATENS to beat up someone who hires a hit on Holmes (or perhaps "offers to" because he says it to Holmes)...in this series, he punches out someone who calls Sherlock "weird." I don't know if the medical profession would call that psychopathy, but it would be scary if you LIVED with that person.
 

The Reichenbach Fall » You see so many things from this episode differently after "Hearse"... » January 21, 2014 1:51 am

And how does Sherlock try to win back John's trust? By staging ANOTHER semi-fake near-death-stunt (which John believes is real.)

I started out wanting John to forgive Sherlock faster...but by the end I was wondering why John didn't take longer to forgive for the train incident. That was evidence that Sherlock was just going to continue to mess with him.

But what is it that you wondered if it was real?

General Sherlock Discussion » ​Moffit and Gattis took canon and threw it in a pot and stirred » January 21, 2014 1:03 am

​They pull out elements from multiple stories and put them into one episode.

Example: Irene Adler with compromising information is from "A Scandal in Bohemia," (and Moriarty was nowhere near involved with that) and Holmes demanding to know who his high-profile client is is from "The Illustrious Client." Is the mixing-and-matching necessary?

The Empty Hearse » Feeding Moriarty Information » January 21, 2014 12:57 am

I just posted about this on another thread: the whole thing of, "Moriarty's plan was always all part of my plan," makes Sherlock seem almost as super-human as he did when he suddenly turned up in Pakistan to save Irene.

I would prefer to believe he trapped Moriarty to stop other bad things Moriarty was doing, not just to save his own reputation.

But on the other hand, it seems like Mycroft is responsible for a lot of the "brilliance" that is Sherlock's operations. Sherlock is not the main genius anymore, if that makes any sense.

The Reichenbach Fall » You see so many things from this episode differently after "Hearse"... » January 21, 2014 12:53 am

...but what about John's graveside speech, and his repeated use of "don't be dead," or "stop being dead," into the mini-sode.

Does that now mean anything different?

Because if there was one thing that was NOT fake about RF, it seems to be John's genuinely believing Sherlock WAS dead. I always wonder if he had to have suspected on some level, if only because he had trouble believing in Sherlock failing...

The Empty Hearse » Sherlock and Molly in The Empty Hearse » January 21, 2014 12:41 am

I felt like, John was trying to "break up" with Sherlock, staying mad at him for faking his death, Sherlock needed someone to replace John. And everything going through his head indicating that he couldn't let go of John.

And Sherlock and Molly's conversation when it's revealed she's engaged plays like either a couple breaking up or a couple who HAVE broken up discussing how they're moving on. For Sherlock it's like, "I'm sorry,I tried, but you can't take John's place."

Or, if we want to be more innuendo-y about it, "It's just not as good with you as it is with John." 

But he's rather nice about it.

But I agree that the "the person who mattered most" line teases Sherlolly. Because it does sound like Holmes is saying Molly is the person who matters most to him and the world. And I think that's at the heart of what John's really so mad about concerning the faked death: Sherlock picked someone ELSE to confide in. The person he was most emotionally intimate with (for Sherlock) was not John. And nicer to someone else.

General Sherlock Discussion » Has anyone texted Sherlock? » January 20, 2014 10:19 pm

Oh, you can find them both on Facebook, too.  And they say they're engaged or married. 

Fan Fic » When Fan Fic Gets a Little Too Real » January 20, 2014 10:17 pm

Search on Facebook sometime for John Watson and Sherlock Holmes. There are profiles for several versions of both...and check out the relationship status!

General Sherlock Discussion » You know you're obsessed with Sherlock when... » January 20, 2014 10:12 pm

gently69 wrote:

He he, just spotted a man with a "Jesus lives" sign. And in my mind I crossed Jesus and wrote Sherlock over it.

"He is Risen" is almost worse for this.
 

General Sherlock Discussion » I REALIZE it's Probably Not Deliberate » January 20, 2014 10:06 pm

I have ONLY seen the TEH, but the revelations about The Fall  -  Moriarty's plan to destroy Sherlock's reputation was all part of Sherlock's plan - really does make it seem like more of a heroic sacrifice, in a way. 

In other words: he allowed his reputation to be damaged to trap Moriarty - as opposed to trapping Moriarty to save his reputation.

The Reichenbach Fall » thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers] » January 20, 2014 10:04 pm

zeratul wrote:

Yeah I thought that too, especially as the flashback starts there.

And maybe, because of that "it's a trick" code-phrase, he was rationalizing, "well, I did tell John I faked it." But that doesn't let him off the hook, because he should know John's deductive abilities (or lack thereof) well enough by now to realize John wouldn't clue in.

General Sherlock Discussion » The Mor...... names » January 20, 2014 9:59 pm

There is a fascinating essay by Michael Walsh, included in the Sherlock Holmes in America anthology, about how everyone in canon with "Mor" in their name (representing a particularly ethnicity, Irish, I think), in canon, is evil: Moriarty and Moran, of course, but he also includes....

MORSTAN: and he makes the following statements:

Mary Morstan is"the good side of Colonel Moran"

When Watson marries Mary, Holmes' world is shattered.

Mary is Holmes' most deadly enemy, against whom he is most powerless

Mary's death brings Holmes back to life. He's not saying Mary is meant to be an evil or unsympathetic character, just that she is Holmes' enemy. (Again, this is from canon - Watson has been married in canon for about two years before Holmes disappears, and Mary passes away during the Hiatus.)

Walsh never uses a word like "homoerotic," but what can he be saying, besides, that the worst thing an enemy can do to Sherlock Holmes is to deprive him of Watson?

The use of the word "shattered" echos the Decoding the Subtext blog on Holmes' reaction when Mary agrees to marry Watson: his heart is broken. It's like Walsh knows Holmes is in love with Watson - without knowing he knows that!

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