BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » I REALIZE it's Probably Not Deliberate

SherlocklivesinOH · January 12, 2014 2:35 am

...but isn't there almost a messianic motif going here?

I am no expert on religious scripture, but I believe there are stories about Christ heeling cripples and raising other people from the dead?

- John's limp goes away.

- John refers to Sherlock saving him and bringing him back to life.

- I don't know much about Mary Magdalen, but wasn't she considered kind of...well, a fallen woman, to be polite? Sherlock saves a sex worker (Irene) who doesn't really deserve it after all she did.

- Sherlock covered in blood.

- the public turns against Sherlock right before his death

- note the position of Sherlock's arms before he jumps

- his supposed death saves other people (this was not really the case in canon)

- Sherlock saying in "Many Happy Returns" that he will come back

- Anderson and his group believing Sherlock will come back (but not everyone can believe, and somehow it makes me mad that Anderson now believes in Sherlock more than John does - John should be the big believer)

John's "don't be dead," and "stop being dead," lines made me wonder if he did suspect, on some level, that it was a ruse...or else he almost thinks Sherlock could rise from the dead...he says "one more miracle," which means that he considers other things Sherlock has done to be miracles.

Granted, much of this, particularly the "rise from the dead," is also from canon. I want to know how Sherlock faked it...but I would kind of like him NOT to tell everyone from Scotland Yard who hated him...let them wonder if it could be something divine or supernatural.

silverblaze · January 12, 2014 9:37 am

I don't think the Moftiss are particularly religious. My guess is that Mark is an atheist, less sure about Steven. Those themes have been around for a while, in our culture, but also in other, unrelated religions, the greeks had similar stories. I think it's not deliberate, but we're all subconciously influenced by what's around us. If they were really going for the religious thing, they probably wouldn't have made Sherlock an atheist, that was really their addition, in canon he's vaguely religious.

tobeornot221b · January 12, 2014 9:44 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
...but isn't there almost a messianic motif going here?

I am no expert on religious scripture, but I believe there are stories about Christ heeling cripples and raising other people from the dead?

- John's limp goes away.

- John refers to Sherlock saving him and bringing him back to life.

- I don't know much about Mary Magdalen, but wasn't she considered kind of...well, a fallen woman, to be polite? Sherlock saves a sex worker (Irene) who doesn't really deserve it after all she did.

- Sherlock covered in blood.

- the public turns against Sherlock right before his death

- note the position of Sherlock's arms before he jumps

- his supposed death saves other people (this was not really the case in canon)

- Sherlock saying in "Many Happy Returns" that he will come back

- Anderson and his group believing Sherlock will come back (but not everyone can believe, and somehow it makes me mad that Anderson now believes in Sherlock more than John does - John should be the big believer)

John's "don't be dead," and "stop being dead," lines made me wonder if he did suspect, on some level, that it was a ruse...or else he almost thinks Sherlock could rise from the dead...he says "one more miracle," which means that he considers other things Sherlock has done to be miracles.

Granted, much of this, particularly the "rise from the dead," is also from canon. I want to know how Sherlock faked it...but I would kind of like him NOT to tell everyone from Scotland Yard who hated him...let them wonder if it could be something divine or supernatural.

One could also mention the code name "Lazarus" which refers to the biblical narrative of the Raising of Lazarus, John, ch.11.

Mattlocked · January 12, 2014 10:09 am

- Anderson and his group believing Sherlock will come back (but not everyone can believe, and somehow it makes me mad that Anderson now believes in Sherlock more than John does - John should be the big believer)

IMO Andersons "belief" is mainly caused by his deep guilt, his desperation because he thinks it's his fault that Sherlock "died". He cannot live with that, so he kind of HAS TO believe that Sherlock's alive.
So no reason to be mad at John.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 13, 2014 3:53 am

I guess this goes on my list of "Things I'd like to see in Season 3": I'd like to see a kind of Sherlock-worshipping cult, who choose to believe there's something supernatural in his not being dead, in-universe, possibly including some of those who originally hated him.

lil · January 13, 2014 2:09 pm

The messianic themes are definitely there and deliberately so.
Look at Sherlocks interactions with Moriarty too...Moriarty threatens to burn the heart out of him..metaphorical reference to loosing his soul and going to hell. Moriarty calls Sherlock the virgin..people laugh and think sex, but no he means innocent. Moriarty owes Sherlock a fall..meaning the fall of man..and temps him with an apple.
On the rooftop Moriarty is trying to get Sherlock to sin, goto hell get burnt via suicide..a very big sin.
Sherlock and Moriarty agree that the whole point has been for Sherlock to die in disgrace, disgrace does not mean getting your name splashed and shamed in the papers..its what we used to call sinners dis meaning cast out and grace , the eye of god.
Thematically and metaphorically it's all very deliberate and interesting and brilliantly written.
The angels and demons theme and the choose sides thing has had me wondering for a while what Sherlock meant when he said ...I may be on the side of the angels...but I am not one of them...hmmm.
It's was interesting when the writers said something like dr who is a god who is trying to be a man but Sherlock Holmes is a man who is trying to be a god.

I guess this theme is their reflect ion of that.

:-) intresting post. SherlocklivesinOH.

I wonder what it will mean now that Sherlock has sinned, killing Magnussen..and also if Anderson is cast as the Judas then the reason/theory Sherlock told him seems odd too....

Last edited by lil (January 13, 2014 2:25 pm)

beekeeper · January 13, 2014 3:38 pm

I tend to agree with those who say these are just themes in our culture. I think they are common to most big arc/prolonged stories. You get them in everything from Harry Potter to the X files to House.

lil · January 13, 2014 4:10 pm

beekeeper wrote:
I tend to agree with those who say these are just themes in our culture. I think they are common to most big arc/prolonged stories. You get them in everything from Harry Potter to the X files to House.

Thats true in many cases , but not in this series.
From pink to reichenbach was only 6 episodes. The many many points above can not all be coincidental, and there are many many more in the show, neither can the examples of script/dialogue that don't fit into the plot, or anywhere other than the theme. The writers change things from canon to fit the theme...Sherlock jumps to save people...irene the fallen woman but still worth saving...etc
Way too much in too short a time to all be coincidence.

Last edited by lil (January 13, 2014 4:12 pm)

beekeeper · January 13, 2014 4:22 pm

I think the show is actually, in practical terms, quite areligious.

None of the main characters are religious. Sherlock is actively anti religious. John gets married in church and that is about it-and tbh, people do get married in Britain in church even if they are atheists because its nice and traditional.

And looking at Moftiss other work, I am not seeing evidence of religious interest, actually the opposite really.

I reallly think you could use this logic on most popular shows. Most stories ARE about redemption, of overcoming character flaws, of friendship and forgiveness and big stuff like that. Assuming Sherlock kind of fits into the geeky sci fi fandom rather than something like Downton Abbey, and I think it does really, all these themes are utterly par for the course in that genre. Coming back from death, struggles, helping the least sympathetic person etc.

See I'd see it the other way around. I'd see Biblical stories as as compelling as they are because they tie into universal themes in literature. But that's probably a bit too deep and controversial for now.

And Conan Doyle of course was a Spiritualist...not sure how that ties in....

Last edited by beekeeper (January 13, 2014 4:30 pm)

lil · January 13, 2014 4:40 pm

Lol yes. But you do not have to be religious to know about or even use the biblical theme / story. To many people , like Sherlock the bible is just another made up story. A very well known and famous one too.
Discussions of this theme isold, and even the actors and writers have mentioned it in interviews etc.
I think it supposed to be a funny/amusing/mocking way of pointing out sherlocks trying to be a god thing, and his huge ego..and his arrogance...etc
For me this comparison is very funny. Especially the Moriarty going about fairytales thing.

Haven't we all heard the saying..... he thinks he's god...aimed at uh certain people.
It is afterall just a amusing side theme..and not the main storyline.

Last edited by lil (January 16, 2014 5:10 am)

saturnR · January 15, 2014 11:46 pm

Sherlock Holmes (whole franchise not just BBC) is a bit Gothic; has Gothic themes & undertones, which sometimes I guess would cross over with Christian/religious themes & undertones.

lil · January 16, 2014 1:02 am

saturnR wrote:
Sherlock Holmes (whole franchise not just BBC) is a bit Gothic; has Gothic themes & undertones, which sometimes I guess would cross over with Christian/religious themes & undertones.

Yes indeed it is the gothic undertones I enjoy so much.

Last edited by lil (January 16, 2014 5:08 am)

besleybean · January 16, 2014 6:44 am

Well I am happy with the way things have panned out.
Because of my views, I am always sensitive to religious references.
But I accept this is the culture I and the BBC Sherlock team were raised in,
So I was delighted at the direct punch to religion that Sherlock delivered in his Best Man's speech.
I would have been disappointed if he had felt any differently.

saturnR · January 17, 2014 7:02 am

besleybean wrote:
But I accept this is the culture I and the BBC Sherlock team were raised in

Sounds like a fellow agnostic. Hi (waves). I don't mind there being religious references in pop culture as long as the show/book/etc... doesn't take itself too seriously.

This being Sherlock Holmes, we needn't worry that they will take anything too seriously, lol

besleybean · January 17, 2014 7:09 am

Agnostic?

Try militant atheist!

Last edited by besleybean (January 17, 2014 7:09 am)

saturnR · January 17, 2014 7:31 am

I used to call myself atheist until I realized that the criteria for atheism requires zero ifs & maybes. even though I am 99.95% certain that we are as we without the help of intelligent design, the other 0.05% excludes me. Sigh

besleybean · January 17, 2014 4:44 pm

You're right of course, but I certainly live my life as if there is no god. No evidence for one, or at least not a nice one!
Sorry guys for OT posts.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 10:06 pm

I have ONLY seen the TEH, but the revelations about The Fall - Moriarty's plan to destroy Sherlock's reputation was all part of Sherlock's plan - really does make it seem like more of a heroic sacrifice, in a way.

In other words: he allowed his reputation to be damaged to trap Moriarty - as opposed to trapping Moriarty to save his reputation.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (January 21, 2014 12:02 am)

besleybean · January 21, 2014 6:40 am

Though he was ultimately exonerated.
But only by saving the world from a criminal network...apparently.

Sherli Bakerst · January 21, 2014 11:23 pm

Very interesting discussion and this is what makes Sherlock great: There is always so much open to interpretation. I agree that religious symbolism is present in the series and I also think there is too much of it to be coincidental. That being said, just because religious references are inserted into storylines does not necessarily mean that the writers actually believe in those particular religious concepts.

Also, in a fanfiction fandom I'm active in, we were discussing types of plots and how they all can be distilled into just a few types. Below are descriptions that I wrote, adapted from info on the website where the info originated; as can be seen, lots of Sherlock fits into these plot types:

For easy reference, below is a synopsis of the seven types of plots as postulated by Aristotle. I have paraphrased the information from this website:
http://peterreeves.suite101.com/what-are-the-seven-basic-plot-definitions-a58402

The Quest
The Quest story centers on a protagonist who is trying to achieve an all-important and often distant goal. The hero can't rest until the task is finished. Along this journey the hero will encounter problems and forces attempting to stop him from reaching his objective.

Voyage and Return
This plot is similar to the Quest and is based around a journey. Here, the hero travels to another world and then returns. On this trip, the main character learns things that give him a better understanding of himself and the world around him.

Rebirth
With this plot type, the protagonist has frequently come under some dark spell initiated by either himself or by some other force. The hero's escape from his predicament can only occur through the actions of other positive forces. In this plot, the healing power of love can be a liberating force. What is notable about the Rebirth plot is that the main character's imprisonment is the result of something in his own psyche.

Comedy
Aristotle explained that comedy depicts people as worse than they are and tragedy shows people to be better than they are. In the traditional definition of Comedy, the characters are thrown into states of confusion, darkness and bewilderment and the resolution occurs only when those limiting circumstances have been played out to their extremes.

Tragedy
Here, the main character is a person (usually of high status) who goes through a succession of actions and decisions that unintentionally brings about his own undoing. This is supposed to create feelings of pity and fear on the part of the viewer and end in an emotional release.

Overcoming the Monster
In this type of story, the hero has to conquer a dark and evil creature or person or entity that has some sort of evil and/or destructive power over a place or people.

Rags to Riches
In Rags to Riches plots the main character appears to go from nothing to greatness; for example, he becomes very rich and acquires high status. In this plot type, the hero very often obtains quick success which is just as quickly taken away. In order for him to reach to this “rich” state again, the main character frequently must defeat an antagonist of some sort.