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The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » March 10, 2014 12:01 am

And remember, the explanation could be real, and yet telling Anderson could be imaginary. 

I could see Sherlock withholding the answer from people like Anderson and Donovan, to drive them crazy. And from John because he likes to be mysterious to John.

The Sign of Three » And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance » March 9, 2014 8:55 pm

I thought Janine looked (and in some ways acted) like Irene. I'm not sure she was as much of a game-player though...there's no indication she was spying on him for CAM or anything...she may just have been excited to be hooking up with a celebrity. 

But that scene with Molly and Tom: Molly is the one acting...I don't want to keep tossing around words like 'sociopathic' but she's the one who does the really nasty (painful) thing. I don't see why deserves it. It's like Molly doesn't want him to upstage Sherlock.

A Scandal In Belgravia » What is it with Sherlock and Irene? » March 9, 2014 6:57 pm

besleybean wrote:

Well I didn't...but I know I'm alone on this.
I don't think Sherlock resoponded sexually to Irene at all, but I know Benedict and Steven say he did.

When I posed the last question I was recalling someone saying they envisioned Irene "thanking" Sherlock for saving her "at some exotic hotel"....well, I guess not everyone here is a Johnlocker!

My point about wanting to see the royals discredited is that if you feel that way, you're not going to be as inclined to cheer Sherlock on against the blackmailers.

A Scandal In Belgravia » What is it with Sherlock and Irene? » March 9, 2014 6:41 pm

jenosborn wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Assuming the rescue in Pakistan really happened, do you think the implication is that Irene changed her ways (either her criminal or her sexual ways) as a result of her experience with Sherlock?

Or, at least, if she "has dinner" with Sherlock, she would play the damsel who is grateful, as opposed to her usual role?

That's an interesting question!   Although I do hate to assume that the rescue sequence
really happened at all,     let's assume it did.    One of the things about Irene I really
like in the Canon is how she 1) outsmarts him and then 2) disappears, moves on,
and doesn't look back or obsess about him.   Nicely done, and we don't
hear from her again.


I like to think Irene doesn't change her ways as a result of her experience with Sherlock,
in any fundamental way.   I'd hope she won't play the 'damsel' if/when they ever have 'dinner'.
In fact,  I like the idea that it was her final outsmarting of him (playing to *his*
emotions) which ultimately saved her.  His rescue of her was her final manipulating victory,
a confirmation that she has the upper hand.   *She* got him to do it!   I'd hope she takes
his advice - "Run!" -  and actually disappears,  moves on, and doesn't look back or obsess
about him.  Nicely done, and maybe we don't have to hear from her again.


But, then again,  I'm not Steven Moffat,  the grand manipulator. 
 

The canon ending sort of works both ways. On the one hand, she has outsmarted him, but on the other hand, in her own words, she is leaving England for ever due to being "pursued by so formidable an opponent." That carries a sense, not of fear, perhaps, but a sense that she may not feel she has won. Because after all, if her life, acting career, and such, were all in England, then she's losing something and essentially having to start over, perhaps even be "on the run" or "in hiding." So perhaps

It's Canon » Johnlock: The Official Debate » March 9, 2014 6:27 pm

Oh, and remember the infamous Stag Night knee grab? There is a knee grab in canon...they are on a train (alone in the train car) on the way to the case, and Holmes has his hands on Watson's knees as he explains how Watson's revolver is going to play an important role in the case. (Thor Bridge.)

However, the circumstances are different enough that I almost doubt that Moftiss was intending to reference that story with the Stag Night knee grab.

A Scandal In Belgravia » What is it with Sherlock and Irene? » March 9, 2014 1:30 am

Assuming the rescue in Pakistan really happened, do you think the implication is that Irene changed her ways (either her criminal or her sexual ways) as a result of her experience with Sherlock?

Or, at least, if she "has dinner" with Sherlock, she would play the damsel who is grateful, as opposed to her usual role?

Benedict's Press » Benedict Was Almost Afraid to Play Sherlock... » March 8, 2014 3:27 pm

nakahara wrote:

veecee wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

http://www.eonline.com/news/500606/why-benedict-cumberbatch-almost-turned-down-sherlock

Do you know, someone mentioned to me that BBC had their doubts about whether he should be cast...because they afraid he wasn't sexy enough?

Mofftiss laughingly mention it in the commentary following the Season 3 episodes (at least in the US). Then it cuts to some screaming fans outside 221B.  Cute.

For the record, I think George Clooney is superattractive, but in a more conventional way.

I rarely swear but this article sounds like a complete „bullshit“ to me.
 
As it happens, BBC produced some Sherlock Holmes adaptations and films before „Sherlock“. The first one was an adaptation of „Hound of Baskervilles“ (2002) starring Rixard Roxburgh:

 
 

 
The second one was an uncanonical story „The Case of Silk Stocking“ (2004) with Rupert Everett in the main role:

 
 

 
No offence to both actors, but the way they portrayed Sherlock Holmes was as unsexy as it could be, they both looked gloomy, sullen, apathetic and unatractive in those productions.
 
Yet no BBC executive seemed to care about such things at the time, because, honestly, Sherlock Holmes was no Adonis in canon and there was no need to portray him as such.
 
Then enters Benedict Cumberbatch and suddenly everybody is sooo concerned about how Sherlock is supposed to be sexy.
 
That only happens because Benedict Cumberbatch single-handedly made that fictional character sexy, energetic and charismatic (possesing those qualities in spades). If another boring bloke like

The Sign of Three » And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance » March 8, 2014 3:24 pm

I forget where I read this, but maybe  Tom was in competition with Sherlock, so to speak. He felt Molly was still hung up on Sherlock, and wanted to prove he was "just as good" in the same way? Molly does seem a bit preoccupied with Sherlock, but then again, he's got the floor.

In HLV, when Molly goes off on Sherlock, and he responds with, "I'm sorry your engagement is broken," obviously he thinks that that's at the root of the anger she's got built up.

But I wonder if (and I just thought of this), she noticed his flirtation with Janine at the wedding, and that also played a role in her getting so angry at him? After all of this time of his being nicer to her, then he suddenly takesn an interest in another (sexy) woman.

Other Adaptations » Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes » March 8, 2014 3:19 pm

I have to say though, I know Holmes may well have only been in his twenties at the beginning of canon, and Benedict may not be that much younger than Brett was when he started the series...but I think Benedict and Martin LOOK youthful, while Brett and his Watsons have a "mature" look.

And let's face it, the modern ones act more immature, too.

A Study In Pink » The "state of her knees" line » March 8, 2014 3:14 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

*sticks her fingers in her ears*

Gosh, I do like that line as it always cracks me up... but I don't really want to know more... and no; I don't think they're still together. I bet Anderson got too freaky for her.

Yeah, she probably went, "You love the freak now?"

I have to say that, as much as there is that I don't like about this Sherlock, he has 1) stopped Moriarty, 2) pulled off faking his death, 3) stopped the destruction of Parliament, 4) brought down CAM...I would think Scotland Yard and/or the British Government would be going, "Oh, we're so sorry we treated you so badly."  And we see some of that with Anderson.

But no sign of it with Donovan?

His Last Vow » John? Out of character? » March 8, 2014 3:11 pm

belis wrote:

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a darker side to John Watson. I  think that a lot of it is in his blind spot thogh and he isn't that aware of himself.

I think (speculate) that some of his behaviours stem from this black and white way of thinking. Sherlock is dead. This chapter of life is closed now. Grieve, cut all ties, move on. Mrs Hudson was part of life with Sherlock and he closed that chapter. I haven't quite made my mind if that is him being callous or a bit inept at dealing with his own emotions and using avoidence as a defence mechanism. 

I felt like John had barely begun the process of moving on when  Sherlock came back; for most of that time it was as if he expected Sherlock to come back. But in Season 3,it's as if he tried to continue with moving on from Sherlock even after Sherlock came back.

And as much as I loved Sherlock's speech in TSoT, I'm not sure I see John making him a better person. The person toward whom I think his behavior changes the most - that he is very obviously nicer to now - is Molly.

BUT see the TVTropes Sherlock Ho Yay page for a more optimistic take...it just points out a LOT of Johnlock in Season 3.

 

It's Canon » Johnlock: The Official Debate » March 8, 2014 3:05 pm

nakahara wrote:

When we are reading canon, one thing is immediately clear to us: Dr. John Watson is an unreliable narrator. He edits the facts of Sherlock′s cases and embellishes them to make them more suitable for the Victorian audience. He sometimes omits certain facts or downright censores some events to avoid unnecessary scandal.
 
So, what if he keeps quiet about some thing which would be unpalatable for the prudish Victorians? Like his relationship with Holmes, for example? What if their adventures took place in a different manner than we think? Hmmm....  

No doubt the mores of the times were part of it, but he also wants to glofiy Holmes! And how about his descriptions of Holmes' physical attributes and physical...prowess?

Doesn't he seem excited in Solitary Cyclist by the fact that Holmes has been involved in a boxing match? 

Read the blog called "With Love S.H." by Nekosmuse: she "decodes" all of the stories for "subtext."

And for still more Johnlock in the Brett series: at the beginning of EMPT, Watson says that "every corner of London" reminded him of Holmes. And he's now a police surgeon! The man is CLINGING to his life with Holmes...there is NO "moving on" here.

Realistic or not, I did NOT like how John's reaction to Sherlock's return in the BBC series was so dominated by anger. Especially since I felt like, at least up until he got together with Mary, John almost behaved liked he was waiting for Sherlock to come back.

A Scandal In Belgravia » What is it with Sherlock and Irene? » March 8, 2014 12:40 am

I wouldn't call myself "a fan" either - but that tends to make me have the opposite reaction to shows like SiB. I feel like, SO much discreditable information about people in high places (not just the royals) has become public knowledge in recent years...and it doesn't seem to ruin their lives or stop them from doing anything important to them. Yes, they get talked about in a negative way forever, but that calls to mind the old adage about whether there's such a thing as bad publicity. Certainly for people in the entertainment industry. 

So I often can't get invested in rooting for the "hero" trying to cover something up...if it's REALLY bad you think it should be exposed; if it's sex-related, you often feel like "how much harm will it do?" I thought they did a little better job of answering that with CAM.

But I still think there is lot of good material in canon that the Mofftis did NOT mine, as they concentrated heavily on the blackmail plots.

I never heard the Duchess had an affair with a female or did anything really "naughty." I've heard mostly good things about her. William either. I know Harry and Andrew didn't have the best reps.

The Sign of Three » "The two people I love most..." » March 7, 2014 11:42 pm

Sherlock does say he's against marriage in general...based on canon when he criticizes Watson for proposing to Mary OSTENSIBLY because "love is an emotional thing that gets in the way" or something like that. 

And some people think it would be in character for Sherlock to oppose an institution he might see as, not slavery exactly, but people belonging to each other. (In stories written in the original canon-verse, but NOT by Doyle, Holmes often rants about classism and patriarchy; not quite sure what the basis is in Dyle for that.)

But I've always felt that if Sherlock Holmes (either in canon or BBC) could bind Watson to him in some legal way, such that the ladies would know Watson was off-limits, he (Holmes) would do that!

Which is actually why Sherlock at the wedding impressed me so much. When you think that there were so many ways he could have tried to come between John and Mary...especially once he found out, you know...but he facilitated them being together, yet in such a way that made it clear he loved John. He turned it into him marrying John, without ruining the wedding (which is what makes me feel like Mary agreed to Sherlock being part of the marriage.)

I also think that sometimes Sherlock, in his own social naivetee, doesn't realize the subtext of some of his own dialogue. I could imagine some homophobic guy making fun of Sherlock's wedding speech, and Sherlock not even understanding why.

Or a line like, "the blood pumping through your veins, just the two of us." WE hear the Johnlock in that; Sherlock might not.

The Sign of Three » "The two people I love most..." » March 7, 2014 9:47 pm

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

Especially that Sherlock uses the word "love" at all is interesting. Or that John uses it to decribe his relationship with Sherlock. I always wonder if that could be called "progress" or if it's something that can only happen as long as John is married.

You mean that they could be progressing from friends to lovers? Or that Sherlock is progressing in his ability to have relationships?

Honestly, as much as I loved Sherlock's pouring out his feelings for John, I wasn't sure I agreed with his premise: I'm not sure John is much better at relationships and emotions than Sherlock is! I think Sherlock may have saved John more than the other way around.

His Last Vow » CAM: Is he actually alive and in cahoots with Sherlock? » March 7, 2014 9:32 pm

Willow wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Willow wrote:


 
I know! On the other hand, it was a great scene for Mycroft, revealing once and for all that he spoke the truth to Sherlock in the garden...

I agree. “The Iceman” is a big softie handling the business in which his little brother is involved.
(And I cannot express how I love Mark Gatiss in the role. He is the best Mycroft ever! )
 

He does it wonderfully well; it's a hugely difficult part because we have to believe that there is one person who can not only keep up with, but frequently overtake, Sherlock, who is the epitome of intellectual brilliance. And our Sherlock is played by an actor of great charisma, which ups the ante, so Mark has to pull out all the stops to avoid fading into shadow, and he not only does it every single time, but he makes it look easy.

The fact that he co-writes the scripts is also pretty awesome  

Actually, I think there's a risk of Mycroft upstaging Sherlock. To have someone more brilliant than Sherlock appear in most episodes, and be "directing" Sherlock a lot of the time (i.e., the plan to trap Moriarty), makes Sherlock stand out less as a genius. He becomes "the younger Holmes brother" who helps the older one, instead of "THE Great Detective." Gatiss may not have charisma, but he's...formidable.

He's also gay. Which shouldn't matter to his performance, but given that he's a writer, might have implications for the use of gay characters and gay jokes.
 

His Last Vow » Mycrofts Motive @ Suicide Mission. » March 7, 2014 8:21 pm

Willow wrote:

lil wrote:

Idk because yes pushing the mission makes Mycroft look like the ice man short term....but then later if Sherlock is extracted..and doesn't die...be quite hard to cover that up just months later.

Well, Mycroft originally told Sherlock that the mission would kill him in six months; that gives him time to be creative on how to extract Sherlock without too much backlash. I don't think Moftiss would create something as predictable as Mycroft doing the Moriarty gif in order to haul Sherlock back after four minutes in the air; it isn't complicated enough.

And we still have one last Moriarty linked villain from canon, so that would be my bet
 

However potentially dangerous the mission, I think, given that this is Sherlock Holmes we are talking about, sending him on ANY kind of covert mission, danger and all, is more merciful than locking him up with nothing to do! I think the real suffering Sherlock undergoes when about to be sent off is facing the prospect of never seeing John again! And perhaps Mycroft realizes that, and it's part of his idea of punishment.

As much as I wanted to feel that the MPs and Mycroft were being morally correct - murder is murder - I had a bit of a, "What....? You should be thanking him!" reaction, especially regarding Smallwood. Which shows how good a job they did writing CAM as a villain. And also...come on...do you really think the British (and US) governmenst have never had anyone assassinated, Mary-style? The UK is the nation of James Bond, after all. 

I wonder if the whole "hearing" scene was in a sense, ALL for show. Because MPs and British government officials don't want to be seen as condoning or celebrating murder. But I have no doubt many of them are privately celebrating CAM's being gone and would like to honor Sherlock for it. I have some rather wild fanfic ideas about this...

This way they can say to the public, "Well, we did INTEND to punish him, but then we needed him."

Or, per

His Last Vow » What's in a dream? » March 7, 2014 8:09 pm

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, that is true. As if John started having one of his usual nightmares which suddenly changed to the positive dream of Sherlock. Well, there seem to be some hidden desires in there. 

It's a great point that John asks Kate if she needs Sherlock before Kate has really asked for anything. Of course, for what Kate wanted, Sherlock might have been useful...but it was JOHN who first brought up Sherlock. Because John had Sherlock on the brain! (Much like when Mrs. Hudson was talking about sex in the last episode.) And "I haven't seen him in ages" could express John's frustration.

What first struck me was that John had suddenly started dreaming about Afghanistan again. The worst surface-symptoms of the effect of the war on John (I'm not sure it really is PTSD) are always "cured" by Sherlock: first, the limp, of course. Remember how John's therapist said in RF that she hadn't seen John in months, and asked why he was back? It was because there was suddenly no more Sherlock.

And now that he is separated from Sherlock, he's dreaming about the war again. It's like John goes through withdrawal when he's not with Sherlock! Or at least relapses to where he was just after coming home from Afghanistan.

Except that now, Sherlock is alive, and Mary is understanding, so John is still "allowed" to work with Sherlock...so his dream reflects that Sherlock is there.

Reenacting the "would you like to see more" conversation reflects that John wants to do more of his work with Sherlock.

And of course, in bed with Mary, dreaming of Sherlock...there is, of course, fanfic where Watson calls out Holmes' name in bed with Mary...(and in a few cases, the result is that Mary offers to, er, involve Holmes in their private life! As of TSoT and before all the revelations, I could see this Mary doing that.)

nakahara, you and I are really those strange minds that think alike.
 

His Last Vow » What's in a dream? » March 7, 2014 8:07 pm

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, that is true. As if John started having one of his usual nightmares which suddenly changed to the positive dream of Sherlock. Well, there seem to be some hidden desires in there. 

It's a great point that John asks Kate if she needs Sherlock before Kate has really asked for anything. Of course, for what Kate wanted, Sherlock might have been useful...but it was JOHN who first brought up Sherlock. Because John had Sherlock on the brain! (Much like when Mrs. Hudson was talking about sex in the last episode.) And "I haven't seen him in ages" could express John's frustration.

What first struck me was that John had suddenly started dreaming about Afghanistan again. The worst surface-symptoms of the effect of the war on John (I'm not sure it really is PTSD) are always "cured" by Sherlock: first, the limp, of course. Remember how John's therapist said in RF that she hadn't seen John in months, and asked why he was back? It was because there was suddenly no more Sherlock.

And now that he is separated from Sherlock, he's dreaming about the war again. Except that now, Sherlock is alive, and Mary is understanding, so John is still "allowed" to work with Sherlock...so his dream reflects that Sherlock is there.

Reenacting the "would you like to see more" conversation reflects that John wants to do more of his work with Sherlock.

And of course, in bed with Mary, dreaming of Sherlock...there is, of course, fanfic where Watson calls out Holmes' name in bed with Mary...(and in a few cases, the result is that Mary offers to, er, involve Holmes in their private life! As of TSoT and before all the revelations, I could see this Mary doing that.)

nakahara, you and I are really those strange minds that think alike. 

The Sign of Three » "The two people I love most..." » March 7, 2014 7:50 pm

The Johnlock implications of this just began to sink in for me. It's not the fact that he really wants Sherlock to be a part of the wedding...of course straight people who are getting married can have friends whose participation in the wedding as best man, bridesmaids, or whatever, is very important.

It's not even the fact that John uses the word "love."

It's the way he lumps Mary and Sherlock together.

"up there with the two people I love most in the world." Not,"the woman I love and my best friend."

He's putting them in the same category, and making their roles in the wedding sound alike. Like he's marrying them both (or wants to.)

And Mary's having abilities much like Sherlock's, in some ways, reinforces this.

 

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