BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mycrofts Motive @ Suicide Mission.

lil · March 1, 2014 1:26 pm

I have been wondering for a while about the Mycroft -Smallwood conversation at the end of HLV. Mycroft seems quite harsh in his attitude to Sherlock here.
We clearly see Lady Smallwood move to get Sherlock out of the suicide mission, but Mycroft insists...cruely calling Sherlock a murderer.
I can not believe Mycroft wants Sherlocks death..yet he insists.

So why..several ideas about..maybe he set up the Moriarty thing or very likely he had some kind of extraction / help Sherlock with the mission plan..
But ...if he just went with Smallwood...Sherlock likely get an easier / less harsh or completly off and none of the above would be needed.
So why does he argue For the suicide mission.

Ozymandias · March 1, 2014 1:44 pm

MYCROFT: There will always come a time when we need Sherlock Holmes.
(Several men sitting at tables in the room look back at him silently but the man standing near him speaks.)
SIR EDWIN: If this is some expression of familial sentiment ...
(Mycroft rolls his eyes, sighs and turns to him.)
MYCROFT: Don’t be absurd. I am not given to outbursts of brotherly compassion.
(He looks down for a moment, then turns to Sir Edwin again.)
MYCROFT: You know what happened to the other one.
(Sir Edwin looks away, grimacing slightly. Mycroft turns to look out the window again.)
MYCROFT: In any event, there is no prison in which we could incarcerate Sherlock without causing a riot on a daily basis. The alternative, however ...
(He looks left towards where Lady Smallwood is sitting at a table.)
MYCROFT: ... would require your approval.
LADY SMALLWOOD: Hardly merciful, Mr Holmes.
MYCROFT: Regrettably, Lady Smallwood, my brother is a murderer.
(He turns away and looks out of the window again.)

Maybe Mycroft didn't want to show to the other people that Sherlock remains his pressure point.
Magnussen blackmail showed him that showing caring is not an advantage. See what he answered to Sir Edwin. He clearly wants people to think he is able to think objectively to the situation.

MYCROFT: There will always come a time when we need Sherlock Holmes.
(Several men sitting at tables in the room look back at him silently but the man standing near him speaks.)
SIR EDWIN: If this is some expression of familial sentiment ...
(Mycroft rolls his eyes, sighs and turns to him.)
MYCROFT: Don’t be absurd. I am not given to outbursts of brotherly compassion.

By the way, I'm convinced that he sat up the whole Moriarty thing

Last edited by Ozymandias (March 1, 2014 1:45 pm)

besleybean · March 1, 2014 1:45 pm

We'll see!

Willow · March 1, 2014 2:15 pm

Ozymandias

I think that Mycroft cannot be perceived in public as having the depth of emotion for his brother that he really possesses; that was what CAM perceived as his weak spot, and CAM was right.

So, for Mycroft the despatch of Sherlock has to be framed in terms of Mycroft doing him no favours; I agree that had the Moriarty gif not appeared Sherlock would have continued on his way, with Mycroft finding some way to get him back. But I doubt that Mycroft set up the Moriarty gif; it's too crude

Ozymandias · March 1, 2014 2:31 pm

Willow, I completly agree with you. Mycroft cannot be perceived in public as "weak" and giving Sherlock a favour. Hey, he cannot give up his nickname so easily! For a member of the British government, it's pretty cool to be called "the Ice Man".

But I don't think that Moriarty is alive. Mycroft would have the power to set up the Moriarty thing. And I really felt that he was quite cold at the tarmac (watch his face when Sherlock asked him some privacy for a last conversation with John Watson, he seems pretty surprised and I think he shrugged with indifference)

Willow · March 1, 2014 3:04 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Willow, I completly agree with you. Mycroft cannot be perceived in public as "weak" and giving Sherlock a favour. Hey, he cannot give up his nickname so easily! For a member of the British government, it's pretty cool to be called "the Ice Man".

But I don't think that Moriarty is alive. Mycroft would have the power to set up the Moriarty thing. And I really felt that he was quite cold at the tarmac (watch his face when Sherlock asked him some privacy for a last conversation with John Watson, he seems pretty surprised and I think he shrugged with indifference)

But then look at his face when he gets the phone call; he seems genuinely surprised by it. I agree that Mycroft is very good at masking his feelings, but his smile when he recalls Sherlock is pretty radiant. I adore the way Mark Gatiss plays that scene; he is such a fine actor, and his line about 'I hope you've learnt your lesson' cracks me up completely.

It does seem to me that it is romantic show, but not in the way it is thought of in much of fandom. It's about righting wrongs, defending the innocent, saving the free world, killing dragons, and much, much more; Mycroft is, underneath it all, a dragon slayer as well. He just likes to think that he's not

But I agree that Moriarty is dead; however, anyone capable of getting that gif everywhere is a force to be reckoned with, and we still have one villain from the canon Return of Sherlock. The big question is who that villain really is

Tinks · March 1, 2014 3:06 pm

That moment on the Tarmac threw me a bit - no goodbyes between the Brothers and a coldness from Mycroft when Sherlock asks for time alone .
But we've been fooled by Mycroft's apparant coldness before, and they weren't alone - wasn't there someone standing next to Mycroft?
In any case, he could've been surprised by the request because he knew Sherlock would soon be coming back.

lil · March 1, 2014 3:27 pm

I understand he wants to show no thaw in the ice man...but wouldn't letting Smallwood have her way be easier than....a secret and complex extraction from the suicide mission.

besleybean · March 1, 2014 3:30 pm

Is that what she was meaning?!

lil · March 1, 2014 3:38 pm

besleybean wrote:
Is that what she was meaning?!

Well she says the suicide mission option is harsh....I think that means she wld give a less harsh punishment..like maybe a completable mission no one else likes/wants to do without a death sentance involved.

Obviously such a thing would be simple for Sherlock. .if maybe a little boring.

Tinks · March 1, 2014 3:40 pm

I thought the whole thing between Mycroft and Smallwood was a prearranged agreement to keep Sherlock out of prison.
Mycroft doesn't often need permission from anyone for anything, after all.
He needed to appear to be harsh on his Brother while he was actually saving his skin (I imagine prison would send Sherlock insane).
He clearly didn't want the men in that room to think Sherlock was his weakness.

lil · March 1, 2014 4:08 pm

Idk because yes pushing the mission makes Mycroft look like the ice man short term....but then later if Sherlock is extracted..and doesn't die...be quite hard to cover that up just months later.

Ozymandias · March 1, 2014 4:18 pm

Lil > yeah, that's why I'm pretty more convinced by the fact Mycroft set up the Moriarty gif. I don't want to believe that Mycroft sent willingly Sherlock on a suicide mission without being certain to be able to save him (and without riskiing his reputation). .

lil · March 1, 2014 4:37 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Lil > yeah, that's why I'm pretty more convinced by the fact Mycroft set up the Moriarty gif. I don't want to believe that Mycroft sent willingly Sherlock on a suicide mission without being certain to be able to save him (and without riskiing his reputation). .

Yes I agree..I refuse to believe he is seriously sending Sherlock to death..
But wouldn't he be suspect no1 when no Moriarty turns up...
Will they have to fake Moriarty style crimes..I don't see that happening.

Maybe we will just get a jokey..really Mycroft....
could have done a better job on the graphics. ? And "miss me"..not very original is it...type joke line from Sherlock ..and back to ...regular episodes?

And a tv..the gov people ...forget the punishment?

Gah....back to Smallwoods simple .. safer...option...Mycroft not grudgingly agreeing so much easier for him.

Last edited by lil (March 1, 2014 4:54 pm)

Willow · March 1, 2014 5:08 pm

lil wrote:
Idk because yes pushing the mission makes Mycroft look like the ice man short term....but then later if Sherlock is extracted..and doesn't die...be quite hard to cover that up just months later.

Well, Mycroft originally told Sherlock that the mission would kill him in six months; that gives him time to be creative on how to extract Sherlock without too much backlash. I don't think Moftiss would create something as predictable as Mycroft doing the Moriarty gif in order to haul Sherlock back after four minutes in the air; it isn't complicated enough.

And we still have one last Moriarty linked villain from canon, so that would be my bet

nakahara · March 1, 2014 10:31 pm

Mycroft would be the biggest hypocrite on earth if he really meant that “my brother is a murderer” line.

It was strongly implied in the show that Mycroft′s work includes plenty of immoral, shady and illegal dealings. One murder committed by the misguided idealist is just a minor annoyance for Mycroft. “The Iceman” wouldn′t be bothered by the fact the scum like CAM died.

His sudden moral indignation is certainly just an act.

Willow · March 2, 2014 5:46 pm

nakahara wrote:
Mycroft would be the biggest hypocrite on earth if he really meant that “my brother is a murderer” line.

It was strongly implied in the show that Mycroft′s work includes plenty of immoral, shady and illegal dealings. One murder committed by the misguided idealist is just a minor annoyance for Mycroft. “The Iceman” wouldn′t be bothered by the fact the scum like CAM died.

His sudden moral indignation is certainly just an act.

Yes, and no.

After all, he could have had Irene Adler killed, but he didn't. The nastiest thing he did to her was to not put her into protective custody; it was Sherlock who threw her to the wolves, once he realised that his screw up menaced Mycroft and the country. Admittedly he took a detour to Karachi to assist her in keeping her head on her shoulders, but it was Sherlock who stripped her of her protection in the first place.

Mycroft wasn't prepared to let a plane full of live people go down to preserve the fact that they had broken a code; he set up a plane full of dead people instead.

I think Mycroft knows that Sherlock has to have a moral code because otherwise he's lost; a Sherlock who went rogue would be a terrifying thing, and Mycroft would be the person who would have to stop him. So, yes and no; Sherlock's acceptance of the fact that he is a murderer, and his willingness to pay the price, is what distinguishes him from people like Mary, and Mycroft knows he has to stay that way to stop him turning into someone like Mary, only a thousand times more dangerous.

Hence 'My brother is a murderer' is what paradoxically makes Sherlock a better person than someone like Mary...

March 2, 2014 6:23 pm

Is Sherlock really under the impression that Mycroft hates him? That he likes to watch the torture in Serbia and the line: Why don't you want me to take it? when they talked about the case in Eastern Europe.
Is this joking, teasing, sarcasm or is there a deeper truth in it?

Fillyjonk · March 2, 2014 6:53 pm

I was wondering how much the whole CAM mission was pre-arranged with Mycroft. At the Christmas smoke, he tells Sherlock he's glad he dropped the CAM business, and then, to explain his sentimentality, mentions "maybe the tea was drugged." Sherlock tells him to go and have some more, with a bit of a joking manner. And he's got his top-secret laptop lying on the table near Mummy and Daddy and Wiggins and Mary. Free for Sherlock's taking. And CAM later mentions that big brother will be very, very proud (if Sherlock catches CAM on the states-secret charges).

I'm wondering if Mycroft's pretending not to worry about CAM is all an act, set up to quietly encourage Sherlock to go after CAM. After all, Mycroft knows what CAM is capable of, and he knows that Sherlock is his own pressure point. As long as CAM is around (and John and Mary), Sherlock is not safe, so Mycroft is vulnerable to all methods of pressure and blackmail.

I'm feeling like Mycroft must be SO done with John after this season. All this time, convincing Sherlock that caring is not an advantage, and here goes Sherlock caring about someone, and look at the giant, convoluted disaster it's created. In a strictly logical viewpoint, Mycroft is right; Sherlock is safer, stronger, less vulnerable and more useful when he doesn't care about anybody. Alas, it's too late to go back to the old days.

Fillyjonk

besleybean · March 2, 2014 6:56 pm

Except Sherlock has always cared about John.