BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » CAM: Is he actually alive and in cahoots with Sherlock?

TK · February 25, 2014 2:22 am

Perhaps Charles Augustus Magnussen is not actually dead?
- Sherlock tells Watson he made a "deal with the devil." But the Sherlock / CAM conversation was hidden from us. Why? What was the deal with the devil?
- When Sherlock told Watson he'd made a deal with CAM, Sherlock sounded serious -- there really was a deal. But later in the show, it appeared that Sherlock was setting up CAM to be caught by Mycroft. That isn't a deal, it's a trick.
- Perhaps there was actually a deal. Sherlock agreed to fake CAM's death. In exchange for ... what? Perhaps CAM's people made a copy of Mycroft's hard drive during the hullabaloo, and Mycroft doesn't realize the theft even occurred, because Mycroft thinks CAM is dead. In exchange, Sherlock protects John and Mary.
- Maybe that's far-fetched. But if CAM is not dead, it resolves these problems:
- CAM's bodyguards do not search Sherlock or Watson -- why not? Because the fake shooting was pre-arranged?
- Sherlock was, uncharacteristically, wrong about the existence of CAM's hard-copy files. But under this theory, Sherlock was just pretending to be crestfallen by the news.
- Also: let's face it, this was a lame and unimaginative ending. Brute force -- that's the solution? Sure, it gets people talking, but it lacks the show's hallmark cleverness. Hopefully the writers have something up their sleeves and we are only meant to think that Sherlock murdered his way out of this one.
- Finally, as is obvious, faked deaths are a frequent occurrence on this show. Why not another?
- Thoughts?

RavenMorganLeigh · February 25, 2014 2:46 am

TK wrote:
Perhaps Charles Augustus Magnussen is not actually dead?
- Sherlock tells Watson he made a "deal with the devil." But the Sherlock / CAM conversation was hidden from us. Why? What was the deal with the devil?
- When Sherlock told Watson he'd made a deal with CAM, Sherlock sounded serious -- there really was a deal. But later in the show, it appeared that Sherlock was setting up CAM to be caught by Mycroft. That isn't a deal, it's a trick.
- Perhaps there was actually a deal. Sherlock agreed to fake CAM's death. In exchange for ... what? Perhaps CAM's people made a copy of Mycroft's hard drive during the hullabaloo, and Mycroft doesn't realize the theft even occurred, because Mycroft thinks CAM is dead. In exchange, Sherlock protects John and Mary.
- Maybe that's far-fetched. But if CAM is not dead, it resolves these problems:
- CAM's bodyguards do not search Sherlock or Watson -- why not? Because the fake shooting was pre-arranged?
- Sherlock was, uncharacteristically, wrong about the existence of CAM's hard-copy files. But under this theory, Sherlock was just pretending to be crestfallen by the news.
- Also: let's face it, this was a lame and unimaginative ending. Brute force -- that's the solution? Sure, it gets people talking, but it lacks the show's hallmark cleverness. Hopefully the writers have something up their sleeves and we are only meant to think that Sherlock murdered his way out of this one.
- Finally, as is obvious, faked deaths are a frequent occurrence on this show. Why not another?
- Thoughts?

You know, I was thinking about this today.... but there are witnesses, so I was a little dubious about the theory. How could they make that work?

TK · February 25, 2014 3:08 am

I think the biggest problem with this theory is: Why would Magnussen want to fake his death?
Perhaps to escape Mary?

SherlocklivesinOH · February 25, 2014 3:55 am

TK wrote:
Perhaps Charles Augustus Magnussen is not actually dead?
- Sherlock tells Watson he made a "deal with the devil." But the Sherlock / CAM conversation was hidden

Well, on this series, it's possible, let's face it!

A part of me REALLY wants this, because it seems like the only way out of the murder charge for Sherlock. And after the whole Moriarty business, I can believe in Sherlock's ability to appear to cooperate with the bad guy, yet still bring him down.

Which conversation are you referring to? We saw them talk at Appledore.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 25, 2014 3:56 am)

TK · February 25, 2014 4:15 am

> Which conversation are you referring to? We saw them talk at Appledore.

There must have been a conversation between Sherlock and CAM prior to Christmas Day, when the two discussed the terms of their exchange.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 25, 2014 4:36 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
TK wrote:
Perhaps Charles Augustus Magnussen is not actually dead?
- Sherlock tells Watson he made a "deal with the devil." But the Sherlock / CAM conversation was hidden

Well, on this series, it's possible, let's face it!

A part of me REALLY wants this, because it seems like the only way out of the murder charge for Sherlock. And after the whole Moriarty business, I can believe in Sherlock's ability to appear to cooperate with the bad guy, yet still bring him down.

Which conversation are you referring to? We saw them talk at Appledore.

Oh, I'd LOVE this. Not comfortable with Sherlock as murderer.

Wholocked · February 25, 2014 5:21 am

Okay here's what I think:

TK wrote:
Sherlock tells Watson he made a "deal with the devil." But the Sherlock / CAM conversation was hidden from us. Why? What was the deal with the devil?

The deal was that he would bring Mycroft's laptop in exchange for all the information CAM had on Mary

TK wrote:
When Sherlock told Watson he'd made a deal with CAM, Sherlock sounded serious -- there really was a deal. But later in the show, it appeared that Sherlock was setting up CAM to be caught by Mycroft. That isn't a deal, it's a trick.

See above. It was both a deal and a trick. Mycroft's laptop would lure the Government officials out to retrieve it, thus giving them a reason to enter CAM's home, at which point they would seize the vault of compromising information. That was the plan.

TK wrote:
Perhaps there was actually a deal. Sherlock agreed to fake CAM's death. In exchange for ... what? Perhaps CAM's people made a copy of Mycroft's hard drive during the hullabaloo, and Mycroft doesn't realize the theft even occurred, because Mycroft thinks CAM is dead. In exchange, Sherlock protects John and Mary.

No. CAM is dead.

TK wrote:
Maybe that's far-fetched. But if CAM is not dead, it resolves these problems:
- CAM's bodyguards do not search Sherlock or Watson -- why not? Because the fake shooting was pre-arranged?
- Sherlock was, uncharacteristically, wrong about the existence of CAM's hard-copy files. But under this theory, Sherlock was just pretending to be crestfallen by the news.
- Also: let's face it, this was a lame and unimaginative ending. Brute force -- that's the solution? Sure, it gets people talking, but it lacks the show's hallmark cleverness. Hopefully the writers have something up their sleeves and we are only meant to think that Sherlock murdered his way out of this one.

I don't necessarily know the answers to these, but my theory re: the bodyguards is that they or CAM were over confident that Sherlock & John had no reason to threaten him. Also, they had frisked them before and found only a tyre-iron on John. They had no reason to think they'd be armed this time.
Re: Sherlock being wrong - sometimes Sherlock is wrong. See "Harry is my sister"
Re: the ending - Sherlock's plan had failed and he saw no other way to rid the world of CAM's influence. It was actually fairly predictable, although I rather expected John to shoot him. They'd learned that the information was only in CAM's head, after all. Remove the head...obvious

TK wrote:
- Finally, as is obvious, faked deaths are a frequent occurrence on this show. Why not another?

Sherlock & Adler have faked their deaths, but that does not mean others have. Moriarty and CAM are both dead.

tobeornot221b · February 25, 2014 5:24 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Oh, I'd LOVE this. Not comfortable with Sherlock as murderer.

Going by the fact that it was so important to clear Sherlock's name from being a fake at the beginning of series 3 (in HLV) - it has to be the more important to absolve him from being a murderer. However successful in series 4 and beyond, Sherlock would always be fundamentally flawed.
Which is, in the first place, NOT canon, and therefore has to be unacceptable for the writers imo.

Last edited by tobeornot221b (February 25, 2014 5:25 am)

Tinks · February 25, 2014 6:00 am

It's an interesting theory but I think CAM is dead.
I don't think the idea that Sherlock is a murderer will even be touched on again - Mycrift dealt with it by putting him in a plane for 4 minutes and that will probably be the end of it - I'd assumed we are to believe that the public will never know who shot CAM.
It's not canon but Moftiss have got around this by taking an ACD story where a female client shoots and kills a blackmailer and deciding that it was really Holmes that did it but Watson covered it up in his blog!
I agree that there are lot of things that make no sense in the run up to the shooting of CAM, but as I've said before - the three very dramatic and breath taking scenes in this episode buried the fact that much of the story was full of plot holes.

Willow · February 25, 2014 10:43 am

Tinks wrote:
It's an interesting theory but I think CAM is dead.
I don't think the idea that Sherlock is a murderer will even be touched on again - Mycrift dealt with it by putting him in a plane for 4 minutes and that will probably be the end of it - I'd assumed we are to believe that the public will never know who shot CAM.
It's not canon but Moftiss have got around this by taking an ACD story where a female client shoots and kills a blackmailer and deciding that it was really Holmes that did it but Watson covered it up in his blog!
I agree that there are lot of things that make no sense in the run up to the shooting of CAM, but as I've said before - the three very dramatic and breath taking scenes in this episode buried the fact that much of the story was full of plot holes.

I'm with you on this one, Tinks. I see absolutely no way that Moftiss would lumber themselves with a live CAM, particularly since we have an apparently live Moriarty. Too many tricks and people switch off...

tonnaree · February 25, 2014 12:38 pm

"Sherlock & Adler have faked their deaths, but that does not mean others have. Moriarty and CAM are both dead.

Agreed.
I am firmly in the camp that Moriarty is not really alive and CAM's death being a fake would be the biggest dissapointment I could imagine right now.

SusiGo · February 25, 2014 12:46 pm

Yes, I agree. Two more faked deaths would be flogging the idea to death.

Lily · February 25, 2014 1:00 pm

Apart from the points already mentioned, it wouldn't even have been physically possible to fake the murder without John's knowledge, would it? Unless Sherlock had a chance to manipulate the gun before John put it in his coat without John noticing it. After all, there definitely was a loud bang when Sherlock shot Magnussen. Also when taking away the body, everyone would have noticed that he wasn't dead?! Or are Mycroft's man supposed to be in on it as well?

nakahara · February 25, 2014 3:39 pm

Like, I can imagine that hell freezes over. I can imagine frogs raining down on earth in downpour. I can imagine pigs flying. But I can′t imagine Sherlock collaborating with CAM. He just would′t do it. Never ever.

The writers of HLV based their story primarily on „The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton“. They preserved the incredible amount of detail from that canonical story up to such minor things as CAM wearing glasses. So it′s quite safe to presume they also preserved Sherlock′s general attitude towards CAM here and didn′t change such a fundamental base on which this story is built.

Sherlock deals with various criminals and he usually doesn′t get worked up about any of them. He saw them all, they have nothing to surprise him with anymore.

But he abhors CAM. Completely.
In Sherlock′s eyes, murderers are nothing in comparison to this reprehensible man:

„I have said that he is the worst man in London, and I would ask you how could one compare the ruffian, who in hot blood bludgeons his mate, with this man, who methodically and at his leisure tortures the soul and wrings the nerves in order to add to his already swollen money-bags?“

He also hates with passion CAM′s tendency to pray on weaknesses of his victims:

„What would it profit a woman, for example, to get him a few months' imprisonment if her own ruin must immediately follow? His victims dare not hit back.“

CAM′s blackmail is utter cowardice, unworthy of man.

For Sherlock, this is not just about the case anymore. It gets personal between him and CAM:

„Between ourselves, Watson, it's a sporting duel between this fellow Milverton and me. He had, as you saw, the best of the first exchanges, but my self-respect and my reputation are concerned to fight it to a finish.“

And we can′t forget that in HLV, Sherlock′s own brother Mycroft is blacmailed apart from Sherlock′s other clients – Lady Smalwood, his best friend John and Mary.

Such is the Sherlock′s distaste for CAM that he, a well-known misogynist, miraculously transforms into a chivalrous knight and is willing to risk everything, his career and his life, for his female client:

„Surely a gentleman should not lay much stress upon this, when a lady is in most desperate need of his help?“

No, no, Sherlock shot CAM dead, that′s for sure. With that attitude, there was no other way for him.

I wouldn′t put it past Moftiss that they will shock us with, for example, Mrs. Hudson being revealed as a new Moriarty is S4. But CAM is done, no doubt about that.

lvmarak · February 26, 2014 11:56 pm

Shooting CAM is not a solution Doyle's Sherlock would have chosen, but this is a younger Sherlock, operating in a different world, where forensic science and computers give anyone who seeks them the advantages the the "historical" Sherlock enjoyed. This difference in enviornment is what justifies and in fact necessitates a different personality development for Sherlock. If this doesn't leave fans here aghast, I could point out to T.V.'s other Sherlock (in Elementary) who muses at a NarcAnon (Narcotics addicts anonymous) meeting that he might have become a different person if he had lived in a quieter, slower paced age.

Last edited by lvmarak (February 26, 2014 11:57 pm)

SherlocklivesinOH · February 28, 2014 10:16 pm

nakahara wrote:
.

But he abhors CAM. Completely.
In Sherlock′s eyes, murderers are nothing in comparison to this reprehensible man:

„I have said that he is the worst man in London, and I would ask you how could one compare the ruffian, who in hot blood bludgeons his mate, with this man, who methodically and at his leisure tortures the soul and wrings the nerves in order to add to his already swollen money-bags?“

He also hates with passion CAM′s tendency to pray on weaknesses of his victims:

„What would it profit a woman, for example, to get him a few months' imprisonment if her own ruin must immediately follow? His victims dare not hit back.“

CAM′s blackmail is utter cowardice, unworthy of man.

For Sherlock, this is not just about the case anymore. It gets personal between him and CAM:

„Between ourselves, Watson, it's a sporting duel between this fellow Milverton and me. He had, as you saw, the best of the first exchanges, but my self-respect and my reputation are concerned to fight it to a finish.“

And we can′t forget that in HLV, Sherlock′s own brother Mycroft is blacmailed apart from Sherlock′s other clients – Lady Smalwood, his best friend John and Mary.

Such is the Sherlock′s distaste for CAM that he, a well-known misogynist, miraculously transforms into a chivalrous knight and is willing to risk everything, his career and his life, for his female client:

„Surely a gentleman should not lay much stress upon this, when a lady is in most desperate need of his help?“

Watson says elsewhere that Holmes "disliked and distrusted [women] but was always a chivalrous opponent" and "had a remarkable way in dealing with them." And indeed, I don't think there are too many truly dislikable women in canon.

It is a favorite theory of Johnlockers that Milverton knew something about Holmes' love life, having to do with either Watson or the college friend Victor Trevor (because gay sex acts were illegal then.)

tobeornot221b hit the nail on the head for me:

Going by the fact that it was so important to clear Sherlock's name from being a fake at the beginning of series 3 (in HLV) - it has to be the more important to absolve him from being a murderer. However successful in series 4 and beyond, Sherlock would always be fundamentally flawed.

Because I felt like, right on the heels of winning over Moriarty's smear campaign, Sherlock basically put himself right back in the position to be criminalized and villified, by things he actually did. The murder being the big one, of course, but I also wonder if the clients he saw on Stag Night will spread stories about him being too drunk to function.

nakahara · March 1, 2014 10:55 pm

I did not say Holmes hated women with passion. He was just quite skeptical about them.

I like that Milverton theory!

He was very drunk at Stag Night but he did catch the Mayflower Man at the end so his clients have no real reason to be offended by his previous misbehavior. Why complaining about the details of the work when you have a successful solution at the end? Sherlock′s methods are excentric anyway.

Yes, it will be a strange sight of Sherlock catching murderers – when he is one himself. Still, I don′t think CAM′s murder will be publicly revealed. The government will probably keep this in secret to avert an international scandal.

And poor Sherlock certainly didn′t suppose he will survive CAM for long. It was painfully obvious he thought they will shoot him immediately after that. What a luck that Mycroft was present!

Willow · March 2, 2014 1:50 am

nakahara wrote:

And poor Sherlock certainly didn′t suppose he will survive CAM for long. It was painfully obvious he thought they will shoot him immediately after that. What a luck that Mycroft was present!

I know! On the other hand, it was a great scene for Mycroft, revealing once and for all that he spoke the truth to Sherlock in the garden...

Regina Alexandra · March 2, 2014 1:29 pm

I can't accept that Sherlock could ever be in cahoots with someone he found so vile. I think CAM is dead. Surely someone has to die and stay dead on this show.

Willow · March 2, 2014 1:30 pm

Regina Alexandra wrote:
I can't accept that Sherlock could ever be in cahoots with someone he found so vile. I think CAM is dead. Surely someone has to die and stay dead on this show.

I'm with you all the way on this one!