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1 - nakahara
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Three Johns
During TAB, we encountered three different Johns.
The Imagined Victorian One, Watson, loyal and reliable, who bickers with Sherlock but saves him at the waterfalls, nearly abndons his wife for him and who is there for him even at the end:
The Imagined Trashy Modern John who is ultra curt with Sherlock, who abandons him immediately when there´s the problem, who throws abuse at him:
who even kidnaps a Victorian One when this one feels the need to use abusive language towards Sherlock:
And the real John:
Why are these three so different from each other? Or are they really?
What is their role in Sherlock´s psyche?
And why is the middle one so aggressively antagonistic towards Sherlock?
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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
- tonnaree
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Re: Three Johns
I think the first one is the one Sherlock longs for.
I think the second one is the one Sherlock thinks he deserves.
And I think the last one is the one Sherlock actually has. Someone who will always be there for him but who will call him out when he hurts someone. Especially when he hurts himself. 
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- nakahara
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Re: Three Johns
He thinks he deserves to be yelled at in this manner? After all he did for John in TSOT and HLV? 
Why? I don´t understand (and would put that even on my shirt if neccessary)...
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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
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Thread Starter- Liberty
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Re: Three Johns
I don't think they are so different. I think first John is an idealised version of John to us, but I think it's an insight into how Sherlock really sees John. He's not actually that far off real John - more perceptive, definitely. The middle one is not so bad - he tries to pull Sherlock back when he's off on the wrong track, and also reminds him of the fall - Sherlock IS on the wrong track at that point. His swearing is more like modern John (the "threat" isn't so different from Victorian Watson who has also recently threatened Sherlock, and Sherlock IS being a pompous prick at this point, refusing to tell him where Mary is), and I think highlights to Sherlock that this is mind palace.
- This Is The Phantom Lady
- Threatened Knighthood
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Re: Three Johns
tonnaree, you just spoke my mind... as heartbreaking as it is with the second John
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- Liberty
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Re: Three Johns
tonnaree wrote:
I think the first one is the one Sherlock longs for.
I think the second one is the one Sherlock thinks he deserves.
And I think the last one is the one Sherlock actually has. Someone who will always be there for him but who will call him out when he hurts someone. Especially when he hurts himself.
Idealised Watson does this as well, when he calls him out on taking drugs. He's really not that far off. I think the most noticable difference for me, is that Sherlock does some deductions through Watson. He also questions himself through Watson (I'm calling Victorian mind palace John "Watson"!), even beats Moriarty through Watson, etc. Although this isn't quite what happens in real life, I think it reflects Sherlock and John being a team, a unit, and how much he needs him.
- tonnaree
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Re: Three Johns
He thinks he deserves to be yelled at in this manner? After all he did for John in TSOT and HLV?
Why? I don´t understand (and would put that even on my shirt if neccessary)...
I think we've established many times over that, beyond his intelligence, Sherlock does not think very highly of himself.
So yes, I think he thinks he deserves harsh treatment. Sherlock thinks he is unworthy of John's friendship, his love and admiration.
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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.
Honorary German
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
-Vaclav Havel
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong." Melissa Ethridge
I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
- nakahara
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Re: Three Johns
The episode equals "going deep" with taking drugs multiple times. Moriarty even says outright that Sherlock "went to deep" this time around. I therefore read "mind John" (which is for me the same one as the idealized John, because they are both in Sherlock's mind) action in the grave scene as a warning. If you dig deeper, John will leave you and you will be alone. But if you fight your demons, he will be there - always. Consequently, Sherlock decides to fight.
I love this theory!
Tonaree: but why would he believe that he is unworthy of John´s friendship? During S3, he did everything that was humanly possible to keep John happy and safe.
And if he believes that they are so incompatible that John absolutely cannot stand him, why would he seek him out then? Why not definitely leave him after TSOT?
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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
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Thread Starter- Mothonthemantel
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Re: Three Johns
I love Swanprides theory also .
But I wonder if we have a before the fall ,after the fall , and husband to Mary John too.
Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 8:14 pm)
"Man may not be degraded to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
- tonnaree
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Re: Three Johns
Feelings of unworthiness do not have to make sense. People can battle them for a lifetime. I think Sherlock's stem from something in his youth and run very deep.
He doesn't leave John because he loves and needs him and somewhere in his brain a part of him knows that John feels the same. But even then it's not surprising that his insecurities would come out in his MP during great stress.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.
Honorary German
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
-Vaclav Havel
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong." Melissa Ethridge
I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
- nakahara
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Re: Three Johns
I also wonder why was this sequence playing in Sherlock´s mind and connected with the "middle" John. This is not something that happens in reality, it is something Sherlock conjures up. But why?
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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
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Thread Starter- Liberty
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Re: Three Johns
I think it's reference to the case, and the place of women - John's comment is unintentionally sexist (it's the kind of thing that would almost always be said about a woman, not a man). It does come across as patronising.
(Victorian John also makes this kind of comment, but more so - when Mary wants to come along with him and he suggests she'll be busy preparing food for them)
Last edited by Liberty (January 4, 2016 10:23 pm)
- tonnaree
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Re: Three Johns
I think it also symbolizes Sherlock feeling that Mary has taken over John.
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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.
Honorary German
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
-Vaclav Havel
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong." Melissa Ethridge
I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
- REReader
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Re: Three Johns
I think it's Sherlock feeling that John doesn't properly appreciate Mary's abilities.
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- Lilythiell
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Re: Three Johns
Just read the name of the thread, and immediately thought "My husband is three people".
Which was apparently not a difficult case, so how come Sherlock cannot solve the Three Johns?
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- Lilythiell
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Re: Three Johns
I think the first one is the one Sherlock longs for.
I think the second one is the one Sherlock thinks he deserves.
And I think the last one is the one Sherlock actually has. Someone who will always be there for him but who will call him out when he hurts someone. Especially when he hurts himself.
Yes, my thoughts exactly.
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I'd be lost without my blogger.
"It’s not a ‘gang’ show, it’s the Sherlock and John show. It’s about developing their characters and their relationship, and the characters drawn into their orbit.” Steven Moffat
- Mothonthemantel
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Re: Three Johns
nakaharas pictures also remind me of the conversation onnthe park bench about Sholto being Johns ex commander and the pics make is seem like Mary is Johns new commander. Maybe Sherlock was also an ex and that makes for three different Johns.
Very interesting thoughts in this discussion . 
Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 11:32 pm)
"Man may not be degraded to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
- RavenMorganLeigh
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Re: Three Johns
I think John #1 corresponds very much to the John we saw in s3. Victorian John seems to be the inner, somewhat idealized John, and John#3, from the last plane scene is closer to"reality", concerned, and really a bit lost in figuring out what to do with it. John from the falls is Romanticized John, the one who is fully with Sherlock.
And, no- I don't think Sherlock just loves to be treated cruelly, but it may be all he thought he could get from RL John Watson, per S3.
- nakahara
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Re: Three Johns
Poor Sherlock.
He ceased to be "married to his work" during HLV and during TAB.
He needs to reach the deepest trenches of his mind, to dig out the new Sherlock from under the ruins before he can continue to do his work and before he can face the RL John as a detective again... this is now more important to him than any case...
But "middle" John doesn´t understand.
Middle John now regards him with contempt and ascribes Sherlock´s wounded heart to his addiction...
Oh, this love is so cruel...!
It´s wrong to expect tranquillity in the path of Love.
May the heart that seeks remedy for its pains be rent!
There is no place for sweetness and peacefullness in the abode of beloved -
it demands submission and the burning of worlds, not inexperience and uncaring.
A true man is not bound to an earthly existence -
what is needed is a different world and a different man to be made.
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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
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Thread Starter- RavenMorganLeigh
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Re: Three Johns
I think what bugs me is that this narrative makes Sherlock a supplicant striving to "become worthy" of John--
It's like he must destroy himself in order to finally rate highly enough in John's esteem to become a "Real Boy".
Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 5, 2016 10:38 pm)
