BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Hints of the Final Problem in previous episodes?

Punch me in the face · January 16, 2017 10:41 pm

So, now that we know about Eurus, Victor and all, can you think of hints of the Final Problem in previous épisodes?

I'm not talking about the most obvious ones (ie. TSOT's "Do you remember, Redbeard, Sherlock?) but of small ones which perhaps didn't make much sense at the time, but which could be big clues to TFP?

I start with The Abominable Bride, Mycroft telling Sherlock:

"This was my fault. A week in a cell. I should have known. In your case, solitary confinement is locking you up with your worst enemy."

Of course, now I can't imagine Mycroft saying that without thinking of Eurus. And I think the "In your case" is very important here.

diva · January 16, 2017 10:52 pm

Great idea! I've been wracking my brain to think of any hints save for the obvious ones (i. e. mentions of Redbeard "the other one" and the East Wind) but didn't come up with much. One might consider that Sherlock being surprised that Harry is John's SISTER is a clue but I doubt the writers had plotted out all the details at such an early stage, and to me it does not make any difference that the secret Holmes sibling is not male but female. The story of TFP would be exactly the same if the mad sibling was another brother.

Preceja · January 16, 2017 10:59 pm

At TAB note Readbeard in Mycroft's notebook - why would he has written it if it is just dog and it seemed that Sherlock has coped with the loss of the dog (I am not child any more).

ewige · January 16, 2017 11:03 pm

Honestly? I can connect TFP with the rest of the show only thru Sherlock's ongoing humanization. I haven't really seen any other rug pulls (apart from Redbeard being Victor) or huge pay offs that had been hinted at from the very beginning.
The whole "deep waters" thing is just conveniently there. Like, the swimming pool scene couldn't have been planned with a crazy sister in mind.
When Mycroft said "you know what happened to the other one", my very first thought was that it must have been a sister. So nothing new here either.
The rest, like with Moriarty meeting Eurus, is nowhere hinted at previously.

I actually think that the rug pulls couldn't have really worked with ppl who'd been analysing the show for years.
And as much as I enjoyed this ep, it just feels like some connections have been forced upon us with no prior indicators whatsoever. Again: Moriarty met Eurus?! If the writers knew he did, he'd have played completely different games with Sherlock!

Last edited by ewige (January 16, 2017 11:06 pm)

Punch me in the face · January 16, 2017 11:05 pm

Ah yes, John's sister. I wonder if they had already planned all the plot at that time, would be interesting to known.

Redbeard in the notebook: yes, now we know Mycroft wrote it as a reminder (it has to use trigger words now and then to check on Sherlock's mental condition)

Also, it makes much more sense that Sherlock was so interested in Carl Powers' case (Mycroft was probably scared Sherlock might remember "drowned Redbeard" at the time!!)

And the water pattern (swimming pool in TGG, swimming pool in TST --in which he almost drowned!--, aquarium in TST...etc)

ewige · January 16, 2017 11:15 pm

Punch me in the face wrote:
And the water pattern (swimming pool in TGG, swimming pool in TST --in which he almost drowned!--, aquarium in TST...etc)

I think we want to read something in the water pattern that's not there. In your two last examples Sherlock had no choice in the venue at all.
So the Reichebach fall remains (I grant Moftiss a connection here) and the swimming pool was accidentally but convenient there, just like John's SISTER.

My point is that Moftiss told us that they deliberately build in many details and look later which of them pay off. They can't take the sister fail from the first ever ep and look smug about it because it was just there for them to pick up later, more or less accidentally. However even such "hints" are few and far in between, no matter how often Moftiss tell us that it's been there from the very beginning and we saw but didn't observe.

NicoleCollard · January 16, 2017 11:17 pm

We would have to rewatch T6T, because there were lots of times when Sherlock felt water around him. But of course this whole Eurus thing was planed for 4th season, so they sent us some hints during the episode.

ewige · January 16, 2017 11:22 pm

NicoleCollard wrote:
We would have to rewatch T6T, because there were lots of times when Sherlock felt water around him.

This is very short term.
Moftiss were presenting the whole thing as tho it would have been obvious from the get go if ppl only observed. The only thing really consistent with this claim is Sherlock's development that's been the over reaching arc all along. The details of the plot of the last ep are barely to not at all connected with previous seasons.

Last edited by ewige (January 16, 2017 11:23 pm)

NicoleCollard · January 16, 2017 11:27 pm

ewige wrote:
NicoleCollard wrote:
We would have to rewatch T6T, because there were lots of times when Sherlock felt water around him.

This is very short term.
Moftiss were presenting the whole thing as tho it would have been obvious from the get go if ppl only observed. The only thing really consistent with this claim is Sherlock's development that's been the over reaching arc all along. The details of the plot of the last ep are barely to not at all connected with previous seasons.

Yes, I agree, that was my point. I don't see many more hints all along the seasons, just these strange visions blurred by water in T6T, but that was intended for 4th season clearly, not from the very beginning.

Last edited by NicoleCollard (January 17, 2017 6:53 pm)

Meretricious · January 17, 2017 2:28 am

I don't think the writers had thought of Eurus/Redbeard/Victor Trevor right at the beginning, but it gives new poignancy to the scene in A Study in Pink when John goes to look at the flat.

JOHN: That's a skull.
SHERLOCK: Friend of mine. When I say 'friend'...

(with thanks to Ariane DeVere)

nakahara · January 17, 2017 8:33 am

ewige wrote:
And as much as I enjoyed this ep, it just feels like some connections have been forced upon us with no prior indicators whatsoever. Again: Moriarty met Eurus?! If the writers knew he did, he'd have played completely different games with Sherlock!

I agree completely.

SolarSystem · January 17, 2017 8:59 am

nakahara wrote:
ewige wrote:
And as much as I enjoyed this ep, it just feels like some connections have been forced upon us with no prior indicators whatsoever. Again: Moriarty met Eurus?! If the writers knew he did, he'd have played completely different games with Sherlock!
I agree completely.

So do I. And I also think that they would have planted at least one or two clues as to where Moriarty's information came from. It now seems as if he wasn't the criminal mastermind after all but instead was somehow guided by Eurus. But if she somehow helped him with The Fall, then I'd really like to know how Sherlock survived... (well, I'd like to know anyway...)

Naavy · January 17, 2017 9:04 am

Maybe - just maybe - he did not knew, she was Sherlock's sister? Could she keep him in the dark about it?

Last edited by Naavy (January 17, 2017 9:05 am)

Naavy · January 17, 2017 9:11 am

Meretricious wrote:
I don't think the writers had thought of Eurus/Redbeard/Victor Trevor right at the beginning, but it gives new poignancy to the scene in A Study in Pink when John goes to look at the flat.

JOHN: That's a skull.
SHERLOCK: Friend of mine. When I say 'friend'...

(with thanks to Ariane DeVere)

Great remark! It seems, like some suppressed memories resurfaced in unexpected ways. I do not think, it was made of purpose from beginning, but it fits to the rest of the puzzle extraordinary

Preceja · January 17, 2017 9:20 am

Moriarty had to have the criminal network of his own. I already wrote it somewhere else but he met Eurus only several moths before his death when he was probably already bored even with his criminal activities and did not mind to die. But he had to be building the net for years and only when he started to be interested in Sherlock (why? maybe as an interesting enemy? ) Eurus wanted to speak with him and they created the plan that included Moriarty's death .

We can just guess what was the plan and if Eurus had the same plan or just used Moriarty. As he might think that killing himself he would kill Sherlock and she believed not or had a backup plan.

Moriarty was talking about the final problem on the roof, Eurus in Musgrave but I am not sure what the final problem really was. For Eurus probably the song but for Moriarty?

Whisky · January 17, 2017 10:06 am

I wonder about Moriarty. So his intention was to get Sherlock killed, and himself as well, or that's what I thought in TRF.

I used to think the final problem was very close connected to "staying alive". To the way Moriarty was so bored, brilliant minded but bored.

If he intended to kill both of them, why put up a riddle. If he didn't intend to kill both of them, why bother about that dramatic set-up on the roof. Except from Sherlock jumping, there was no gain, was there. It was about Sherlock dying, and if it wasn't, why would he shoot himself? He seems to be the kind of man who would want to see the pay-off. What if Eurus never got out of that cell. What if she changed her mind - she isn't a reliable person to carry out some plan from years ago. Moriarty would have been dead and nothing would have happened to Sherlock. What kind of plan is that?

And Eurus... I don't understand her need for cruelty on Sherlock. I understand her desire to kill off John or Mycroft, because she wants Sherlock for herself. But why agree with Moriarty to set up such a game for Sherlock? When all she wants to have is his friendship, compassion, attention, whatever?
Of course, to her mind, probably complicated is the new easy. I would never expect her to create a very easy scenario. But what does she know about Moriarty and Sherlock? Who would inform her about them? Apparently only Mycroft was in touch, and the only hint we get is how he exchanges information with Moriarty that one time. Would he have told Moriarty about Eurus? Too dangerous, if he wanted to protect Sherlock - Moriarty would have certainly used the information on Sherlock. Moriarty doesn't strike me to be a type to keep secrets that hold potentional to hurt s.o.

So, no, for me it's all loose ends, and no conclusion. I agree with everyone who said they only worked towards this from a very late point onwards.

Which makes me wonder - when exactly where the scripts written? We know filming dates, but do we know when the scripts where finished? (wasn't there something on twitter?) And were all three scripts for series 4 worked on parallel or was there the possibility that they only decided to go that way in s403 after the earlier ones aired?

Last edited by Whisky (January 17, 2017 10:08 am)

Liberty · January 17, 2017 10:33 am

I got the impression from interviews that they had the idea of a cleverer sister a long time ago, but didn't seriously start to plan her until S3/HLV. Possibly even after writing S3 (apart from the line about brotherly compassion, which was a clear hint). Any hints before then are just coincidence, I think. Moriarty didn't really make use of "Redbeard". I think Moftiss used Moriarty because they wanted to make the connection to Sherlock's archenemy - but I don't think they'd planned that when they originally wrote S1 and S2.

Interesting that Magnussen presumably knew who Redbeard was (it wouldn't have been too hard to find out that Sherlock's friend disappeared when he was little, I suppose), but Sherlock doesn't know.

Whisky · January 17, 2017 10:39 am

Liberty wrote:
Interesting that Magnussen presumably knew who Redbeard was (it wouldn't have been too hard to find out that Sherlock's friend disappeared when he was little, I suppose), but Sherlock doesn't know.

I think he got that from Mycroft, without context.

Naavy · January 17, 2017 10:47 am

CAM simply said "Redbeard", not sure, if he understood what this word meant for Sherlock.
If the dog never existed, CAM obviously had very good source of informations, very close to Sherlock. But not Mycroft, it surely was to private matter to him, and much to painful.

Liberty · January 17, 2017 11:04 am

What I mean is that a child's disappearance (rather than a dog's death) would be very newsworthy, and would be easy enough for Magnussen to dig up. The nickname he may have got from Mycroft (although why Mycroft would give him it, I'm not sure? Would he want Magnussen repeating triggers to Sherlock? Or was he under pressure?), but any research into Sherlock's background would have shown a close connection to a disappeared child.

Also kind of interesting that Magnussen doesn't think of Eurus as a pressure point - presumably some research would also have found that a sibling was incarcerated, and about the house fire. It's unexpected that Sherlock doesn't even remember he had a sibling ... but maybe Mycroft passed that information on. (But again, why would Mycroft be passing on information that could be used to get to Sherlock and hence to get to Mycroft?)