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January 2, 2017 5:02 pm  #41

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

The writers just blather on and rattle off any old nonsense to fill time and space in interviews.
Confirmed then.

"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.

January 2, 2017 5:03 pm  #42

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

But maybe the rift will get worse.


January 2, 2017 5:05 pm  #43

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

..... In all other instances throughout the series, I have had no trouble understand whenever John was frustrated and/or angry with Sherlock. I didn't even have a problem understanding his violence at the reunion.
But this I don't understand. I did believe something like this could happen - that John would blame Sherlock for the death of Mary or the baby, and that would lead to their estrangement. But I had assumed that if that happened, John would have a bigger reason for his anger (based on misunderstanding or not) than what we got here

Well, first of all, I presume it's just a major plot device. The writers are planning something BIG for the S/J relationship story thread. In other words, just like Jessica Rabbit, who wasn't bad, she was just drawn that way, John Watson isn't really an irrational nasty nut case in this scenario, he was just drawn that way to give us something interesting to talk about, something interesting to happen to Sherlock and perhaps a new twist to their highly unusual friendship that has yet to be revealed.

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of what happened, because OMG, what gives, right? And what was that sound John was making with his head bent over Mary's dead body? It was almost animal-like. Sheesh! Sherlock's face was a picture. I wanted to slap him and tell him to SAY SOMETHING--  after all, he'd have taken the bullet for Mary, if the tables had been turned, and John must know that, right? But she shoved him out of the way and sacrificed herself for him, but how was that Sherlock's fault and how did it have anything to do with that vow he made?

Great question, good basis for lots of discussion. Thanks for starting this thread.


January 2, 2017 5:05 pm  #44

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

I don't agree with them either.  But I think things might have been different if Sherlock had set up the confrontation differently.  He could have just had her arrested and questioned, instead of doing it himself, and inviting John along.  It was John who called the others, I think - perhaps it was dawning on him that it would be dangerous.

I'm still not sure about his text to Mary.  The curtain rises. The last act.  It's not over. (I think - reminds me of his lines in TAB).  At first I thought he invited John along and not Mary, but this is almost as if he's asking her along to see the show. 


January 2, 2017 5:10 pm  #45

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Yeah, I didn't like that line from Moffat either, about Sherlock's lifestyle killing her. They all chose - with open eyes - to live that lifestyle, knowing fulling well the potential danger of it. 

However, he does go on to point out that of course it wasn't Sherlock's fault. 

I think I could've accepted the situation easier if John was there to see Sherlock riling her up. At least that would've have been a much more understandable reason for his anger than the vow. 

"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings

Team Hudders!
     Thread Starter

January 2, 2017 5:12 pm  #46

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Yitzock wrote:

....... But at the same time, he doesn't want to completely cut himself off from Sherlock.  He did give Molly a note to give him, after all.  He may be putting up a front of not wanting to see him, but I think part of him doesn't want to completely break things off.

As you say, they do belong together, so yeah, there's no way John would not eventually be drawn back to Sherlock's presence, as a moth to a flame.

I do wonder what's in the note. If the only message was "I'd hire Satan himself to help me out over you", then Molly gave him that message. So I presume the note has something else in it. Urgh... hard to wait for the next ep!


January 2, 2017 5:17 pm  #47

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Yitzock wrote:

I agree, Pops, on both your points.  Also, I forgot to mention before: I really like the picture in your signature!

Thank you, that's my own creation !

I agree with ancientsgate about the note. I'm curious to see what's on it... If John really wanted Sherlock out of his life, he wouldn't give him a note. It's a contradiction ! Except if the note says "Don't come back in my life ever again !"...

January 2, 2017 5:19 pm  #48

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

....But to be angry to the point of not wanting to see him because of the vow? I don't get that.

They showed him prowling the cemetery, the way he did when he thought Sherlock was dead--  and I do wonder if he's ever completely forgiven Sherlock for that, even though years have gone by--  IMO John isn't probably rational right now. Anyone who has lost someone important to them, especially suddenly, and especially-especially in a senseless, violent way, can be forgiven for acting as though they want to fall in the grave with the deceased. Grief will do that to a person. And poor John, he just went through that with Sherlock--  how much can one man be expected to deal with that cemetery thing?

We're used to John being gently exasperated almost always with Sherlock, but not show that viper anger that he spat at him over Mary's body.  Even the anger John showed when he found out he'd been shut out of the Reichenbach thing, supposedly because if he'd been told the truth, he couldn't have kept the secret (insulting!) angry as John got then, punching Sherlock right in the nose, he didn't spit at Sherlock like a wounded animal, not like he did this time. Wow...  scary.


January 2, 2017 5:26 pm  #49

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Lis wrote:

............. John can't deal with both the pain of losing Mary and his guilt about his infidelity and about sending Mary there first at once so he is putting all of his guilt and anger at the situation onto the closet person to him, Sherlock. I think he will come to realise it was not Sherlock's fault.

I agree. It was just a big old gnarly ball of crap that rose up in John and made him act the way he did there at the death scene. Sherlock was made the whipping boy.  Which I think he's actually willing to be, for a time. But he seemed genuinely puzzled when he came back to the house, I don't know what length of time after the burial, and got rebuffed by a Molly who looked like she'd been through the wringer--  the poor girl looked like she hadn't bathed or eaten or slept in weeks, which makes one imagine what John was going through, or how much John hadn't actually been there.

I'm just hoping John's not hanging out with the bus girlfriend in his time of need. OMG....  I know, off subject, I will stop now with that nonsense, lol.


January 2, 2017 5:28 pm  #50

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Oh Aggie, don't even go there!


January 2, 2017 5:29 pm  #51

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Marsha B wrote:

I'm more upset that John was cheating on Mary. Something I didn't expect from him but perhaps it's some pent up passive/aggressive issue about how she deceived him in the beginning. A lot of psychological issues going on here for everyone. 

yes, lots going on. I was dismayed by the girlfriend too. What in the world did she offer that John thought he needed?  I didn't see a physical affair, though, am I just being naive? I thought they were just text-flirting, no?

But either, yeah, John should feel guilty. One more facet of what led to his rage with Mary's death.


January 2, 2017 5:34 pm  #52

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

nakahara wrote:

......And suddenly it´s Sherlock´s fault that he put her into that position (with her eager participation)? So what could he do? Damned if he did leave her at home, damned if he took her along.... 

And in that way, quite realistic!  Any married couple would have had that conundrum about who would go and who would stay and find a babysitter.


January 2, 2017 5:38 pm  #53

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

I also find it interesting that none of this makes Sherlock angry. He just looks sad. If someone accused me of something like that, I would've been furious (born out of hurt). 

Lestrade was there, though, he saw it all. I do hope he will pay John a visit, give ham a smack at the back of his head and tell him to get a grip.

I love Lestrade. Love, love, love. I hope they make more use of his character and mending S'J's rift would be super cool.


January 2, 2017 9:34 pm  #54

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Liberty wrote:

I think Sherlock is not angry because he knows he made a mistake. Not blaming him, but he does set high standards for himself. I also think he took the vow really seriously himself.

I agree. You could almost see the wheels turning in his head. It's so seldom that he goes out on a limb emotionally for anyone, actually is willing to literally take a bullet for someone in order to protect them. He extended that determination to do that (the vow) not only to John, but to John's wife and (I presume) child. Probably part of Sherlock is gobsmacked that he actually gives a care about anyone but himself enough to even know they need protection, much less try to supply it, and here he was, being blamed by one of his loved ones for the demise of another of his loved ones. Argh! I don't think anything in Sherlock's psychological make up or experience has prepared him for any of this.


January 2, 2017 9:36 pm  #55

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Mothonthemantel wrote:

.........Perhaps John feels he now must put the baby first...........

Except John didn't seem to be there for the baby. We saw him briefly wandering the cemetery, and then at his house, Molly had obviously been left tending the baby and John was ???? where? bb doesn't want me to say he might be at the bus girlfriend's, lol....  I hope not, too.


January 2, 2017 9:37 pm  #56

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

In this interview, Steven elaborates on this exact issue and how they will deal with it for the coming two episodes:

I can't read this. I don't do spoilers, but thanks for posting, for others who might want to go there. I'll just wait to see what's up.


January 2, 2017 11:32 pm  #57

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Did you see Sherlock's hand trying to touch John's shoulder to comfort him after Mary's death? Then was when John screamed at him so violently. "Don't you dare [to touch me]!". Poor Sherlock. First time he tries to comfort someone.

Sherlock Holmes: I've disappointed you.
John Watson: That's good... that's a good deduction, yeah.
Sherlock Holmes: Don't make people into heroes, John. Heroes don't exist, and if they did, I wouldn't be one of them.

January 2, 2017 11:40 pm  #58

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

NicoleCollard wrote:

Did you see Sherlock's hand trying to touch John's shoulder to comfort him after Mary's death? Then was when John screamed at him so violently. "Don't you dare [to touch me]!". Poor Sherlock. First time he tries to comfort someone.

Poor Sherlock.

I also noticed, when he confronted Mary with a USB stick at the cementery, how he touched the place where she shot him during their dialogue and rubbed it.
He might have forgiven her, but the injury is still there and it´s painful....



I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

January 2, 2017 11:44 pm  #59

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

I though that was from him recently taking quite the beating by the hands of her former colleague. He does sport a black eye on the next day when he talks to Mycroft... 

We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.

January 3, 2017 12:34 am  #60

Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

I was very impressed with the way Ben played the Sherlock arc toward gaining more 'humanity' in this show.  On my second viewing I was mesmerized by his subtle expressions of sorrow and helplessness - his realization that he had brought Mary back to her own 'Samara' in London. That the genius show-off with the God-like intellect is not God and cannot make everything all right or solve everything. He had always managed to save the day in some way, but not this time.  And now realizing that his inability to protect Mary also means his loss of John -John who always believed Sherlock could solve everything. All this culminating in the scene with Sherlock's visit to the therapist - whether or not in his mind-palace. I loved how this scene paralleled John's visit after the fall. It was highly emotional for me to see where Sherlock learning to care has led him. The high drama of their rift is going to tear my heart out before this is over.

And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

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