The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 6:24 pm |
besleybean, I agree.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 6:23 pm |
Schmiezi, but Lestrade didn't see the final, very soft "Miss Me", where Jim almost looks a little sad. It lasts only for a few seconds and doesn't belong to the public broadcast.
So far this hasn't been addressed, and I don't know what's the point of this little scene.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 6:18 pm |
As to Amanda Abbington's or any other actor's interpretation of their roles: that's certainly interesting but unreliable. Since they shoot so much material, they might not fully know themselves what is exactly going on at the time when it's filmed. BC once said that he himself didn't know for sure how Sherlock faked his suicide.
At the time it was shot Amanda Abbington might well have been told that she is supposed to play a woman who reacts instinctively. If later scenes contradict this version she's most certainly not allowed to tell us ;)
I'm not saying that we have seen a doctored scene. But I don't exclude it anymore.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 6:07 pm |
The discussion really has moved into strange realms.
If Mary really sacrificed herself for Sherlock then it's indeed hard to doubt her loyalty and we probably have to assume that GoToHell is meant to be a metapher for the difficult realm Sherlock needs to enter in order to save John. But I have developed some doubts now if the shooting scene we have seen in the aquarium hasn't been doctored - just like CAM's shooting. The way Mary seemed to intercept the bullet simply looked too cartoonish for my taste. Certainly it could've been done in a more realistic fashion and in a less physics-defying manner. So, why did they go with this cartoonish version? Interestingly the doctored CAM shooting looked a bit cartoonish, too
If the footage which shows Mary's death was indeed doctored then all bets are off. Then we can't conclude with certainty anymore that Mary really died because she took the bullet in order to save Sherlock. Then we simply don't know what really happened - just like those who will only see the doctored version of CAM's shooting. And we also can't conclude anymore that Mary must've been on the side of the angels for sure because she sacrificed herself. Maybe, that's not at all what happened - to borrow Sherlock's words.
It has been pointed out that Mary's GoToHell might not have been part of the dvd which has been viewed by Sherlock and that it was only meant for us, the viewers, who are privy for a moment of Mary's true feelings. It's a distinctive possibility.
I don't know what to believe anymore. This episode is totally ambiguous. And while I still don't like it a lot, it certainly has become more interesting for me.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 1:22 pm |
No Lola, you certainly didn't discourage me. The so far available facts don't allow to draw a conclusion with any certainty ;)
The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 4, 2017 1:00 pm |
Of course this whole line of thought opens up a whole new can of worms: if Mary didn't really die sacrificing herself for Sherlock - which seemed to redeem her fully - what is she? Good or bad? Do we really know most things about her past? Is Vivian Norbury really the traitor?
I haven't the foggiest idea right now. It might well all be a figment of our overimaginative fantasy. But the doctored footage of CAM's death and the many apparent continuity errors (if that's what it really is) give me pause.
The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 4, 2017 12:50 pm |
Well, I haven't the foggiest idea where all this is going. Let me just say this: Susi was righg to start a thread about what's real in the latest episode. Maybe, the doctored footage of CAM's death has a larger significance. It tells us that what we see onscreen doesn't need to be what really happened. And come to think of it, Mary getting hit by the bullet looked massively doctored
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 12:43 pm |
Lola Red, yes, we don't have to wait that long. I'm out of this particular discussion, since we can't resolve it anyway right now. The footage is too ambiguous.
The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 4, 2017 12:35 pm |
Susi, I don't believe that John killed Mary. That seems too fantastic. He might've needed an alibi for something else - like undercover work. But who knows? We have seen doctored images at the beginning of the show, which apparently showed that Sherlock didn't kill CAM. There is indeed something massively unrealistic and surreal about Mary getting hit. It's so over the top unrealistic! And I cannot make sense of Sherlock being at the aquarium in the beginning. Also, I had the impression that he was winding up Vivian Norbury deliberately for some reason. So, we might indeed not have seen what really happened. But that doesn't necessarily mean that John must have killed Mary.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 12:24 pm |
Lola Red, as I said already, I'm emotionally totally neutral on whether John has or hasn't cheated. If he has - it would be plausible enough for me. But as some have shown - and I'm not talking about some ridiculously over the top tumblr posts - what we have seen, doesn't add up to a plausible sequence of events. Why for example are there two versions of the bus scene out in the first place? I guess, they didn't just want to kill time?
Anyway, it doesn't have to be one or the other: John could well have done some undercover work and have cheated (at least emotionally) and texted with more than one person
This storyline has turned an IMO very mediocre and confusing episode into something slighly more intriguing. Let's wait and see how it will play out eventually.
The Six Thatchers » First impressons and discussions » January 4, 2017 10:35 am |
Sherli Bakerst wrote:
I've only watched it once and will definitely watch it again. Some initial impressions:
…
* I liked the first half much better than the second half.
* I really liked Mycroft and Sherlock arguing about his phone.
* The pacing was very fast; too fast, in my opinion, because many scenes seemed like they were too short and disjointed.
* I enjoyed Sherlock lecturing the baby about the rattle.
* Where was John???
* Hard to believe John would initiate an extra-marital affair, since he expressed such deep love for Mary in HLV.
* I think that woman on the bus has to have a more significant role in the show -- there's just got to be more to things than a simple affair.
* Felt the scenes showing Mary and her disguises as she flees went on way too long.
* Was confused by the beginning in the aquarium -- that location seemed rather out of character for the show, to me anyway.
* Sherlock's fight in the kitchen and the pool went on way too long for me.
* What's with Mycroft's office? In prior episodes, he had a huge and airy office that looked like it was in some government building -- here, it looks like he's in some basement dungeon.
* I think the text overlay technique was overdone in this episode; a more sparing use of it would have made it more effective.
* Next time, I'll watch it with subtitles because, even though English is my first language, I still missed a lot of the dialog.
* Mary sacrificing herself the way she did was admirable, even though I don't like the character.
* I wasn't impressed by Martin's acting when John grieved Mary's death at the aquarium -- it seemed over the top to me and not completely real.
* Molly's look at Sherlock when she had to tell him what John said was heartbreaking -- that was excellent acting!
* I didn't really care for this episode -- it didn't seem like previous episodes -- but I couldn't really put my finger on why...
* ...Until I read this article, which now I realize is exactly what I felt about what was wron
The Six Thatchers » TST - what is real in this episode? » January 4, 2017 10:26 am |
Susi, I think you're on to something with your questioning of reality in TST. The whole episode is confusing to the max. The problem is that it is always hard to distinguish between simple continuity errors, deliberate stylistic choices which are not always compatible with physics and real clues. In this episode the apparent continuity errors seem to add up, though, to staggering proportions. Were they just that sloppy or are they trying to get the audience to question what they see?
The two versions of the bus scenes seem to indicate that there a conflicting versions of reality out there. That hints at an unreliable narrator who is not omniscient or who tries out different versions in his mind. John could for example reflect in his mind how a casual observer would interpret the interaction between him and the mystery woman.
The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 4, 2017 10:11 am |
We also discussed it in thread about John and his mysterious texting. While I like the idea that hell is an acronym (on second thought: do we really need ANOTHER acronym?) I also believe that Mary is urging Sherlock to descend into some kind of private hell in order to save John. That would explain the intensity of her tone. And it ties in well with what Mofftiss have said lately - that they would go where they have never gone before. Although they might just have channelled Star Trek
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 9:41 am |
I also have to agree with Solarsystem: I really hope all this will be addressed in the upcoming episodes. The show has an unfortunate history of unexplained clues which have been dangled in front of our noses. I have a hunch, though, that the Jim-Moriarty conundrum will eventually get resolved. It's too juicy for leaving it alone. The question is of course if we will find the solution convincing
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 4, 2017 9:29 am |
besleybean, I agree with you here. I think that Mary is trying to tell Sherlock that he needs to descend into hell in order to save John. I suspect that it will turn out to be a private hell which is somehow connected to Sherlock's family history. That would tie in best with what Mofftiss have said lately. As to Mary sacrificing herself in order to save Sherlock's life: the things which threaten John somehow must've been known to Mary when she made the recording. She might've sensed that only Sherlock would eventually be able to save John. Therefore she ultimately decided to save Sherlock's life in the aquarium - because it was the only way to save John in the long run.
That said, I wouldn't bet on any of this. The Mofftiss pair have fooled us before. And you never know if something is an important clue or if they just try to mislead the audience.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 3, 2017 11:09 pm |
Besleybeans, it's no problem. I just wasn't aware of any undercurrents. And I remember from three years ago: susi does an excellent job here
That said, the episode has just become a lot more interesting for me. I really think there's more to John's contacts than meets the eye. And while I believe that he has always been in love with Mary, he has indeed been sidelined a bit by Sherlock and Mary as far as the sleuthing business goes. That was a clear undercurrent in this episode. Therefore it's plausible that he might've been ready for undercover business - which of course doesn't exclude the possibility of an at least emotional affair. I still think, though, that the midnight text exchanges were with someone else than the mystery woman - IMO he texted with someone he knew but hadn't been in contact with for a while.
As I said: we will see...
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 3, 2017 10:25 pm |
Ok, Susi, I admit freely that I missed three long years
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 3, 2017 10:20 pm |
Who did attack a character here?? We are just trying to interpret what we have actually seen, since it's ambiguous in some people's opinion. But I don't think we need to get wound up about this. Fairly soon all this will hopefully get cleared up.
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 3, 2017 10:14 pm |
Undercover work for SOMEONE works fine for me, though. Come to think of it, the whole bus contact thing could be one agent contacting another - as in John le Carree novels
The Six Thatchers » John´s cheating » January 3, 2017 10:11 pm |
Susie, thanks for the tumbler link. Interesting post. It comfirms my suspicion that the text exchanges aren't what they seem to be. That said, I'm not emotionally invested whether John actually has an affair or not. But the whole sequence of pictures and texts doesn't add up logically IMO.
I think it's unlikely that he works undercover with Sherlock, though. If this idea holds water it will probably be something more sinister. Sherlock has to save him after all.