BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John´s cheating

besleybean · January 3, 2017 10:38 pm

Humph!

sherlocked · January 3, 2017 11:09 pm

Besleybeans, it's no problem. I just wasn't aware of any undercurrents. And I remember from three years ago: susi does an excellent job here
That said, the episode has just become a lot more interesting for me. I really think there's more to John's contacts than meets the eye. And while I believe that he has always been in love with Mary, he has indeed been sidelined a bit by Sherlock and Mary as far as the sleuthing business goes. That was a clear undercurrent in this episode. Therefore it's plausible that he might've been ready for undercover business - which of course doesn't exclude the possibility of an at least emotional affair. I still think, though, that the midnight text exchanges were with someone else than the mystery woman - IMO he texted with someone he knew but hadn't been in contact with for a while.
As I said: we will see...

besleybean · January 3, 2017 11:11 pm

Yes I think there could be more to the situation than it seems...hell, it still seems an awful coincidence that Mary ended up with John. Not that she didn't really love him, she did!
I think poor John just had to accept he wasn't as clever as Sherlock and Mary...unless of course this spurred him to try and do something clever!
Another 'calling it' moment for me: John's texts were with the bus woman...we may get more on this later.

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2017 11:14 pm)

ancientsgate · January 4, 2017 2:26 am

besleybean wrote:
.........Some people did not like Mary, I get that. But can she not now be left to rest in peace?
........

I'd happily leave her in peace, but.... after they showed the little skull icon at the end of the episode, which is usually THE END, they showed Mary saying, "Go to hell, Sherlock." So they'd given us the DVD scene where Mary asked Sherlock to help John, since she's now dead, but then they tacked on that little PS to leave us with our mouths hanging open. Again. Argh!

Schmiezi · January 4, 2017 6:29 am

ancientsgate wrote:
besleybean wrote:
.........Some people did not like Mary, I get that. But can she not now be left to rest in peace?
........
I'd happily leave her in peace, but.... after they showed the little skull icon at the end of the episode, which is usually THE END, they showed Mary saying, "Go to hell, Sherlock." So they'd given us the DVD scene where Mary asked Sherlock to help John, since she's now dead, but then they tacked on that little PS to leave us with our mouths hanging open. Again. Argh!

That's the point! I must admit that watching the end credits, I was wondering if I had to like Mary for sacrificing her life. Then, "Go to hell, Sherlock!"

If it was meant as "You have to go to hell and back for this", there would be no reason to place the scene after the end credits. What sense would it make?

As for John cheating, watching the episode for the first time I never doubted that he texted the bus lady in bed - then I realized that there was no name to be seen. John could have texted anybody. I am really interested to find out more!

SolarSystem · January 4, 2017 6:48 am

One reason for placing Mary's "Go to hell" after the end credits could simply be to throw us off track and have us rack our brains about the meaning of those words. And that's obviously what we're doing. It's definitely opening a new door, whereas Mary dying and then only leaving the message we got before the end credits wouldn't have been as huge.
(What I don't like about this is, quite frankly, that they are repeating themselves by giving us such a message after the end credits. So we have two of those messages now, and they both need to be addressed in the upcoming episodes. I really hope that this time around Mofftiss will tie up some loose ends...)

besleybean · January 4, 2017 8:49 am

Okay I have commented on this elsewhere, so I am not going to repeat myself.
But Mary is NOT telling Sherlock to go to hell as in ' get lost', she's warning him of what he will have to face to save John and this is the mission she is giving him...so she can hardly to tell him to get lost, when she wants him to complete a mission for her...apart form the obvious!
I see a lot of Mary's actions mimicking Moriarty's, i.e. an apparently post death video...I even had the random idea that this is the team's way of marking the passing of lead characters!
I have every confidence that the Moriarty issue will eventually be put to rest.
For Mary, I don't see an issue...unless it turns out they are both still alive, of course!

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2017 11:11 am)

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 9:29 am

besleybean, I agree with you here. I think that Mary is trying to tell Sherlock that he needs to descend into hell in order to save John. I suspect that it will turn out to be a private hell which is somehow connected to Sherlock's family history. That would tie in best with what Mofftiss have said lately. As to Mary sacrificing herself in order to save Sherlock's life: the things which threaten John somehow must've been known to Mary when she made the recording. She might've sensed that only Sherlock would eventually be able to save John. Therefore she ultimately decided to save Sherlock's life in the aquarium - because it was the only way to save John in the long run.
That said, I wouldn't bet on any of this. The Mofftiss pair have fooled us before. And you never know if something is an important clue or if they just try to mislead the audience.

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 9:41 am

I also have to agree with Solarsystem: I really hope all this will be addressed in the upcoming episodes. The show has an unfortunate history of unexplained clues which have been dangled in front of our noses. I have a hunch, though, that the Jim-Moriarty conundrum will eventually get resolved. It's too juicy for leaving it alone. The question is of course if we will find the solution convincing

besleybean · January 4, 2017 11:13 am

I seem to be different to some others, in that I don't actually have a long list of unresolved things.
Other than Moriarty, my only personal one is whether Mycroft knew Mary was going after CAM...and actually, who tipped off CAM about Mary?
Sadly, we don't get to choose our solutions: but I am usually happy with what Mark and Steven do.

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2017 11:14 am)

Lola Red · January 4, 2017 12:08 pm

about John cheating: I will (until proven otherwise) believe that good, patient, protective, forgiving, loyal John actually got tempted. He f***** up and I am sure it is killing him right now. That tumblr post? I know we love to see significance in even the smallest detail, and yes, every now and then we are right. But when in doubt, I always tend to go for the easiest explanation. They tend to shoot multiple takes.
I would, however, as always, be delighted to be proven wrong. But as things stand I am tempted to say that the doubt around John's cheating is more an act of self-protection from the fandom, than an actual clue.

What still confuses me are the after credit scenes of Mary and Moriarty, are TPTB trolling us or do their mean anything? However, this is not the topic here, so I will refrain from going into detail.

Liberty · January 4, 2017 12:10 pm

It could have been Mycroft who tipped of CAM, perhaps in exchange for something. That might make him a "reptile". I would like to know more about this too, although perhaps we're not going to back there.

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 12:24 pm

Lola Red, as I said already, I'm emotionally totally neutral on whether John has or hasn't cheated. If he has - it would be plausible enough for me. But as some have shown - and I'm not talking about some ridiculously over the top tumblr posts - what we have seen, doesn't add up to a plausible sequence of events. Why for example are there two versions of the bus scene out in the first place? I guess, they didn't just want to kill time?
Anyway, it doesn't have to be one or the other: John could well have done some undercover work and have cheated (at least emotionally) and texted with more than one person
This storyline has turned an IMO very mediocre and confusing episode into something slighly more intriguing. Let's wait and see how it will play out eventually.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 4, 2017 12:25 pm)

Lola Red · January 4, 2017 12:34 pm

See, to me, that does not make sense. At least, talking about balance of probability, John actually being tempted makes more sense to me. The first round of scenes shows us the John that we know, that we want to see. The loving husband and father, always loving, always loyal. And then we see what actually happens. And I found it a very convincing portrait of a good man being tempted by life (and I am not excusing John here or blaming bus stop lady). And, but that is really just my personal problem, that was about the only storyline in the episode I actually liked, so maybe I just want to believe it is real. But it is also a feasible explanation for the scenes we are given, so I'm sticking with it until I am proved wrong. And that will not happen before next Sunday

besleybean · January 4, 2017 12:38 pm

I've been reminded that while I was unable to sleep last night, I thought I'd kind of come up with some sort of third way for John, really more on the what he was going to tell Mary thing.
It didn't have to be either, that he'd actually cheated OR that he wanted the marriage over. It could of course be just to admit that he'd been tempted, now regretted it and wanted to make a fresh start.
I also wondered if this was the team's way of dealing with the canon mystery of Watson's loss...they completely conflate a divorce and a death!

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 12:43 pm

Lola Red, yes, we don't have to wait that long. I'm out of this particular discussion, since we can't resolve it anyway right now. The footage is too ambiguous.

Liberty · January 4, 2017 12:53 pm

I don't think John was going to divorce Mary. What prompts his interrupted confession, is her saying that it's difficult for her because he's so perfect (and she's so flawed). I think he was going to come clean, and show her that he wasn't as perfect as all that. He'd earlier admitted that it wasn't just Mary lying.

Lola Red, yes, that's what I feel. And I think the whole setup was very believable - the mundane setting (bus/bus stop), bus stop lady's cute fluster, John being flattered, being in two minds - I think Martin showed it very well.

besleybean · January 4, 2017 1:11 pm

On both counts, seems so to me.

Lola Red · January 4, 2017 1:18 pm

sherlocked wrote:
Lola Red, yes, we don't have to wait that long. I'm out of this particular discussion, since we can't resolve it anyway right now. The footage is too ambiguous.

Oh I hope I did not discourage you or anything. That was never my intention. But I agree that until we get new data no-one is very likely to alter his or her theory.

besleybean · January 4, 2017 1:19 pm

And some may possibly not even then!