BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Why did Moriarty kill himself?

**Posted by Arya** July 6, 2012 5:50 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Nah, Moriarty's not coming back...he did kind of blow his brains out.

He does have a couple of brothers though.

Brothers. That would be interesting...

Is that from canon?

**Posted by The Skull** July 6, 2012 6:54 pm

Arya wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Nah, Moriarty's not coming back...he did kind of blow his brains out.

He does have a couple of brothers though.
Brothers. That would be interesting...

Is that from canon?

I know of at least one reference to a brother, at the beginning of "The Final Problem". Watson mentions a Colonel James Moriarty, who had been writing letters defending the deceased Moriarty.

**Posted by veecee** July 6, 2012 7:44 pm

For us, I think they set up Sherlock as capable of almost anything when they had him step on the injured cabbie and throw the American out the window. I think Moriarty just found he had to believe it, too, and that Sherlock would go further than Mycroft ever did to get what he wanted. And, I agree with those that say Moriarty couldn't stand to be bested, and took the only way out that would let him win (so he thought). And he very specifically wanted Sherlock to fall. That metaphor/imagery was very important to him.

Last edited by veecee (July 6, 2012 7:44 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** July 6, 2012 7:58 pm

veecee wrote:
For us, I think they set up Sherlock as capable of almost anything when they had him step on the injured cabbie and throw the American out the window. I think Moriarty just found he had to believe it, too, and that Sherlock would go further than Mycroft ever did to get what he wanted. And, I agree with those that say Moriarty couldn't stand to be bested, and took the only way out that would let him win (so he thought). And he very specifically wanted Sherlock to fall. That metaphor/imagery was very important to him.

Yes, "I owe you a fall". And you are right, Sherlock can be ruthless at times, for example with the woman at the school of the abducted children. That was not his normal difficulty in detecting other people's emotions, it was planned and on purpose. This also fits with his allusion to being on the side of the angels but not being one of them. And not being a hero either.

**Posted by ancientsgate** July 6, 2012 9:08 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Nah, Moriarty's not coming back...he did kind of blow his brains out.

Not necessarily. A bang from a gun loaded with blanks, a fall backwards and releasing blood from a container somewhere behind his head does not make someone dead. Any more than falling 4 stories, kawhumping on a sidewalk, and laying in a pool of blood makes one dead.

AS has said he is "moving on." We'll see. I think for the right number of pounds sterling, he could be persuaded to move back in. Moriarty is a juicy part, and I suspect his actor loves his character to the max.

Time will tell.

**Posted by Davina** July 7, 2012 6:26 am

I really don't think that Moftiss will depart from the canon to the extent that Moriarty is resurrected. I will be very disappointed if they do, much as though I love Andrew's portrayal.

**Posted by Irene Adler** July 7, 2012 8:24 am

Davina wrote:
I really don't think that Moftiss will depart from the canon to the extent that Moriarty is resurrected. I will be very disappointed if they do, much as though I love Andrew's portrayal.

Same here. I love Andrew, but I think Moriarty's time is over, I hope they don't bring him back. It would be too far away from canon

**Posted by kazza474** July 7, 2012 12:31 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Nah, Moriarty's not coming back...he did kind of blow his brains out.
Not necessarily. A bang from a gun loaded with blanks, a fall backwards and releasing blood from a container somewhere behind his head does not make someone dead. Any more than falling 4 stories, kawhumping on a sidewalk, and laying in a pool of blood makes one dead.

AS has said he is "moving on." We'll see. I think for the right number of pounds sterling, he could be persuaded to move back in. Moriarty is a juicy part, and I suspect his actor loves his character to the max.

Time will tell.

You do realise how dangerous firing a gun loaded with blanks is? especially into one's mouth.

The Moriarty character is over. The canon is filled with other villians, and bringing him back just because he was popular is selling out; something Moftiss will never do to the canon.
We have been spoilt with the amount of time Moriarty has lingered through this show; far longer than any other interpretation.

People have this strange idea that even when Moffat or Gatiss say something in black and white that they are lying. They cannot afford to lie to their fans. Moffat has said (I won't attempt a quote here) that the Moriarty character has been done and is no more. It was said without any possibility of any other meaning.
In the past people have interpreted his words to mean many things; and have been fooled. That is not Moffat's fault.

It is a foolish show creator who does things because the fans are crying out for it. As shown so many times, the fans are fickle & don't know what they want really because when they get it, they tear it to pieces.
Even your own posts of late, you believe a simple solution will eventuate; and yet you're pushing the 'blanks and blood etc' theory? That's a strange kind of simplicity.

**Posted by ancientsgate** July 7, 2012 4:22 pm

kazza474 wrote:
It is a foolish show creator who does things because the fans are crying out for it. As shown so many times, the fans are fickle & don't know what they want really because when they get it, they tear it to pieces.
Even your own posts of late, you believe a simple solution will eventuate; and yet you're pushing the 'blanks and blood etc' theory? That's a strange kind of simplicity.

I guess I'm just a simple kind of person. ???

I have no idea what the showrunners have said or haven't said, about anything. I live in the US, the show came late to us to begin with, but then I never watched it, even the first series, until just a few months ago. I don't read fan gossip forums (like ohnotheydidn't, for instance), don't read fan publications, Don't watch TMZ or E!Entertainment News on TV, don't go to internet places where fans are gabbing (except here)-- no Tumblr for me, for instance-- I have no interest in hanging out where teenagers are, sorry. Old lady here.

My posts are simply me yammering away about that which interests me. I neither want nor need any kind of influence over TWIC of Sherlock-- they will write what they write, decide what they decide, and I realize I have no input on any of that, nor should I have.

Yes, I realize firing blanks into the mouth is not....healthy. And that Moriarty is undoubtedly dead and gone forever. But is it okay with you if I just dream a little that he might not be and then talk about it here?? Thanks.

**Posted by veecee** July 7, 2012 6:21 pm

I thought the Moriary character was fabulous and Andrew was amazing, but I agree that Moriarty should not and most likely will not come back. Still, one purpose of the forum is to discuss different ideas and opinions about the show, so theorize away!

Blanks are dangerous. An American actor in the 1980's shot himself in the temple with one and ended up brain dead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum.

**Posted by ancientsgate** July 7, 2012 6:59 pm

veecee wrote:
I thought the Moriary character was fabulous and Andrew was amazing, but I agree that Moriarty should not and most likely will not come back. Still, one purpose of the forum is to discuss different ideas and opinions about the show, so theorize away!

Blanks are dangerous. An American actor in the 1980's shot himself in the temple with one and ended up brain dead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum.

Discussing this with an interested email friend just today, she said that M never actually sticks the gun in his mouth, just makes as if he's about to. Sherlock jumps back in reaction, gun goes off, M falls, etc. I will have to look at the scene again and see about this, because I think I distinctly remember him eating the gun. I believe my friend is mistaken.

**Posted by Sherlock Holmes** July 8, 2012 5:23 pm

Yeah, he definitely eats the gun...haha good expression, like it.

**Posted by ancientsgate** July 8, 2012 8:44 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Yeah, he definitely eats the gun...haha good expression, like it.

Yes, I went back and looked, and he shoved it in there at least an inch or two, enough to get the job done. In RL, it would have, shall we say, been waaaaaay less pretty than what they showed. But that's okay. I don't particularly desire to see anyone's eyeballs, teeth and gray matter sprayed around. Ewwwww. Had you not heard the expression about eating your gun before? Maybe that's an old one, or an American-ism. Ewwww again! Colorful expression.

**Posted by Lupin** July 28, 2012 7:03 am

From what I understand of Moriarty's character, Moriarty finds life to be a malaise' from which he needs to find distraction, much similar to Holmes (similar sentiments are expressed by Holmes in passing in The Great Game and to Irene in Scandal in Belgravia). Holmes provided this distraction and became a fixation of Moriarty to challenge him. In the end, he tries to construct a fall for Sherlock from which he has no recourse but to jump. I think that Moriarty doesn't care about his own life, just solving The Final Problem (nice place on the original story).

When Sherlock pointed out that there was a way out, because he could torture Moriarty, Moriarty simply countered the move to keep Sherlock trapped with jumping being the only solution. His own life was of less importance to him than winning.

Last edited by Lupin (July 28, 2012 7:05 am)

**Posted by SandraNM** July 28, 2012 9:53 pm

One key as to why Moriarty killed himself is that the screenplay is dramatic fiction, artistic fantasy and doesn't have to have strict adhrence to logic or reality.

A lot of what people think are clues are foreshadowings with repeated images. In Reichenbach Fall the theme was suicide and faked suicide. (Two images come to mind, the hanging dummy in the apartment being a suicide tought to be a murder. And Mycroft holding the newspaper so 2 headlines, when read together, read "Fake" and "Suicide". It would have been a greater mystery to figure out than just thinking about how Sherlock did it.

One reason the show had to get rid of the Moriarty is to move onto a different plot line.

The other key is in Doyle's stories. In The Final Problem Holmes and Moriarty go over the falls. Both disappear. We read in the next story that Holmes is alive. (Doyle didn't want Holmes to come back. He was tired of writing him.)

Who jumped into the falls to get rid of whom? Doyle can't show his hero as a killer. It was 1890's not a modern American shoot-em-up movie. The good-guy was good back then.

When Doyle brings Holmes back, due to popular demand, we find out that Holmes fooled everyone into thinking he was dead so he could "go undercover" & apprehend some of Moriarty's cohorts. He tells Watson about an air-gun used to kill people at a distance. I think he was describing a highpowered rifle that wasn't invented yet.

Remember on TV the guy in the stairwell stowing away his highpowered rifle? Was he supposed to shoot John if Sherlock didn't die or did he shoot Moriarty to take over his crime syndicate? (After comment. OK I'm willing to admit that guy was going to kill John if...but he wasn't one of the assassins that somebody (Jim M?) hired. I got this idea on line anyway from a reliable source. I think in the books, the next villian S.H. faces is a guy who was part of Moriarty's "gang" and had an long distance powerful air-gun.) Doyle brings Moriarty back only in retrospect ("flashbacks") I hope they do bring Andrew Scott back for flashbacks because his performance was so excellent I want to see more of him and his character.

The series is very clever the way it "follow" the literary stories in a witty way...writing Rache instead of Rachel was opposite in meaning in story vs. screenplay. Very cool.

Last edited by SandraNM (July 29, 2012 6:45 pm)

**Posted by The Doctor** July 28, 2012 11:25 pm

Yepp, the witty canon references are what makes it truly awesome.

"shoot John if Sherlock didn't die"
yeah, just make sure either Sherlock survives knowing everyday his friends are dead, or the other way around.. psychological torture..

**Posted by ancientsgate** July 29, 2012 2:36 am

SandraNM wrote:
One key as to why Moriarty killed himself is that the screenplay is dramatic fiction, artistic fantasy and doesn't have to have strict adherence to logic or reality.

Oh. You mean this wasn't real? *wonders* heh

A lot of what people think are clues are foreshadowings with repeated images. In Reichenbach Fall the theme was suicide and faked suicide. (Two images come to mind, the hanging dummy in the apartment being a suicide tought to be a murder. And Mycroft holding the newspaper so 2 headlines, when read together, read "Fake" and "Suicide". It would have been a greater mystery to figure out than just thinking about how Sherlock did it.

I never put two and two together and noticed the FAKE.....SUICIDE headline connection. Clever of you to see that. And yes, the hanging dummy. Not an accident. Also an opportunity for one of the funniest John-Sherlock moments in the whole series, "So, what, did you just talk to him for a really long time or something?" bwahahaha

Remember on TV the guy in the stairwell stowing away his highpowered rifle? Was he supposed to shoot John if Sherlock didn't die or did he shoot Moriarty to take over his crime syndicate?

No, I'm pretty sure, that guy in the stairway had a bead on John-- in fact, they showed John through the rifle scope, his head behind the cross-hairs. From that angle, that guy could never have shot Moriarty on the roof, unless M was standing up on the precipice with Sherlock, I suppose. The gunman was there to kill John, if Sherlock didn't fall.

Doyle brings Moriarty back only in retrospect ("flashbacks") I hope they do bring Andrew Scott back for flashbacks because his performance was so excellent I want to see more of him and his character.

AS says he's done. Anything's possible, of course, if the writers want to go there, and if Andrew is available for what they plan, and if the price is right. If Sherlock's death can be explained away, surely Moriarty's could as well. But I think I hope they invent new bad guys. I think we've seen enough of Moriarty. Sherlock is probably done with him, too, in more ways than one.

**Posted by JaneCo** July 29, 2012 12:03 pm

The guy in the stairwell is a bit of a puzzle

The assassins are employed by Moriarty's 'clients' who want the keycode, and they are trying to keep Sherlock alive. Mycroft draws John's attention to them and shows him photos.

The snipers are there to bump off John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson if Sherlock doesn't jump.

When I was watching TRF I noticed that the sniper in the stairwell was also included in the photos of the five assassins shown to John by Mycroft.

Any thoughts?

**Posted by Davina** July 29, 2012 1:37 pm

Yes. I've been wondering about him and also the other female Russian assassin. Deliberately confusing, I think.

**Posted by JaneCo** July 29, 2012 2:44 pm

Yes, makes me laugh that it is only the woman John has previously noticed!

If he's an assassin rather than a sniper, why is he in the stairwell at St Bart's?