BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

**Posted by ancientsgate** April 30, 2014 10:55 am

SusiGo wrote:
But is it not really sad that so many people would seemingly be put off by a gay relationship?

Social attitudes change at about the speed of a glacier, but they ARE changing. American TV treats gay relationships as one might the 3rd rail on the subway line-- DANGER! HIGH VOLTAGE! DO NOT TOUCH! as though by going there they'd get struck by lightning and go up in flames or something. Ridiculous? You betcha. But what we see on TV more or less follows the attitudes of the society it purports to entertain, and that industry is almost 100% run by men, with the target advertising audience being males between 18 and 35... so....is it any wonder we don't see loving relationships between men portrayed in our mainline TV? Maybe someday.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 10:56 am

ancientsgate wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Very true. The question really is, why go to all that 'trouble' and include all these tiny hints if they mean nothing in the end? Maybe to keep the fandom discussing it over and over and over again, right. Then again, maybe not only that.
Because Moftiss et al are having a helluva wonderful time, that's why. They're having f-u-n, and they're hoping that we are also doing the same. They don't "keep the fandom" doing anything; I think the fandom is fuelilng its own discussion/debate fires very well on its own!

There has to be something there to discuss and talk about in the first place.

**Posted by mrshouse** April 30, 2014 10:58 am

SusiGo wrote:
But is it not really sad that so many people would seemingly be put off by a gay relationship?

I agree. The discussion would never be half as heated if it was M/F. Has anyone ever discussed if in Star Treck maybe Zachary Quinto is put off by having to kiss Zoe Saldana?

**Posted by gently69** April 30, 2014 11:03 am

SolarSystem wrote:
So here is more evidence...

http://dudeufugly.tumblr.com/post/84099130765/thenaebyrd777-why-have-i-not-seen-any

Oh yes, I really really like this.

mrshouse wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
But is it not really sad that so many people would seemingly be put off by a gay relationship?

I agree. The discussion would never be half as heated if it was M/F. Has anyone ever discussed if in Star Treck maybe Zachary Quinto is put off by having to kiss Zoe Saldana?

And he IS gay, isn't he?

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 11:12 am

mrshouse wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
But is it not really sad that so many people would seemingly be put off by a gay relationship?

I agree. The discussion would never be half as heated if it was M/F. Has anyone ever discussed if in Star Treck maybe Zachary Quinto is put off by having to kiss Zoe Saldana?

I think Susi was talking about members of the audience being put off by a gay relationship. For most people it's totally natural for a man (Quinto) to kiss a woman (Saldana), but they would probably start to scream if Sherlock and John ever kissed.

**Posted by mrshouse** April 30, 2014 11:13 am

Yes, he is, that's my point. I'm perfectly fine with that, he is really handsome, i like his acting skills. Just to bear in mind, when people mention Benedict and Martin cringing at the idea of johnlock. And we don't want too heavy stuff, do we? I'm fine with some life time commitment, knowing smile, entangled hands...

**Posted by gently69** April 30, 2014 11:19 am

Perhaps people also have a problem with two straight men playing a gay couple. Who knows?
As mrshouse mentioned, there are no objections to Zachary Quinto, a gay man, playing a straight character. Just a guess ...

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 11:21 am

But how many people from the 'ordinary' audience who aren't fans do actually know whether or not an actor is gay or straight...? When I watched the first Star Trek movie by JJ Abrams I had no idea that Zachary is gay.

**Posted by gently69** April 30, 2014 11:26 am

I said ... just a guess.

**Posted by SusiGo** April 30, 2014 11:56 am

1. Yes, I was talking about the audience, not the actors.

2. As I said before, kissing or holding hands would be fine. I just want to be sure that they love each other and that John does not run off again after a woman. That is all.

3. I think it should be perfectly fine for a gay person to play a straight character and the other way round. It is their job, after all, they do not have to play themselves constantly. This is a bit similar to a black actress playing the part of Frankenstein's wife.

**Posted by gently69** April 30, 2014 12:08 pm

SusiGo wrote:
3. I think it should be perfectly fine for a gay person to play a straight character and the other way round. It is their job, after all, they do not have to play themselves constantly. This is a bit similar to a black actress playing the part of Frankenstein's wife.

I don't have a problem with it at all. Just thought ... parts of the ausdience could.

And as you know on the other hand there a few people who are open for everything ... who transfer Johnlock to Benedict and Martin which is absolutely intolerable for me.

Last edited by gently69 (April 30, 2014 12:13 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** April 30, 2014 12:15 pm

Yes, I know. But in general (not only concerning Sherlock) the people responsible have to decide if they want to change something or fear bad ratings. Ben Stephenson who is responsible for BBC Drama recently said (including a mention of Moffat having been calles to explain why they cut the gay club scene):

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/bbc-drama-controller-ben-stephenson-calls-for-more-gay-characters-when-gay-scripts-comes-in-i-shall-definitely-be-commissioning-it-9158341.html

And I seem to remember Mark saying something like that as well.
I think there are several stages - in the "old times" you could not show any openly gay characters. Now you can but they are often placed in stories centering of specific subjects like AIDS. But I am sure that one day you can have a police inspector or doctor or whatever just go home to their same sex partner without any fuss. As it should be, IMO.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 30, 2014 12:16 pm)

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 12:28 pm

I think with "Sherlock" it can go in both directions and, just like Susi says, will be up to the people in charge of the show/BBC whether or not they want to go there.

As for Moffat's explanation about cutting the gay club scene: Well. The scene "went on and on and on" because it was written that way, and the writers certainly know how long one written page (for example) will run on the show. They could have taken care of that while they were still in the writing process. They also cut have cut another scene. Lots of possibilities. But we don't know what that scene was all about, so it's probably useless to think about it...

Last edited by SolarSystem (April 30, 2014 12:32 pm)

**Posted by gently69** April 30, 2014 12:41 pm

I also think that there are traditional reasons as well. If Sherlock and John were new invented characters it certainly could be more accepted by the audience if they are gay and have a relationship. But they are always shown as close friends with an excentric friendship.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 12:49 pm

That's certainly true, nevertheless the funny thing is: They can make 'John' into a 'Joan' and okay, some people don't like the idea, but all in all people seem to be fine with it. But going one step further with Sherlock and John and their friendship... But yes, I guess that's the world we still live in.

**Posted by SusiGo** April 30, 2014 1:02 pm

Yes, I agree with you. After all, they have been very creative with canon, last not least by turning a 19th century governess/housewife into an assassin trying to kill the hero. But changing the sexual orientation of the characters seems to be too much.
(Provided this would be a change at all. The slash discussion was not born with BBC Sherlock after all but is much, much older).

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 1:15 pm

Yes, they have modernised, changed and played around with quite a few things, and it would just be sad if Johnlock of all things should be the great, big exception.

**Posted by gently69** April 30, 2014 1:15 pm

With no AIDS background or something like that ... yes, as Susi mentioned ... can't think of a gay couple on TV or film ... hmm ... there was "My Beautiful Laundrette". The only one that comes into my mind.

**Posted by tonnaree** April 30, 2014 2:01 pm

A gay male couple are major characters on the show Modern Family. The New Normal was all about a gay couple having a child, even though it only lasted one season. Kirk and Blaine are major characters on Glee.

We have made a lot of progress. One thing I notice is these shows are mostly comedies. There seems to be more hesitation in putting major gay couples in dramas.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 30, 2014 2:05 pm

Isn't there a male gay couple in "Supernatural" or "Torchwood"...?