BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Has Mary killed Johnlock?

**Posted by NotYourHousekeeperDear** January 6, 2014 9:19 pm

I think they are both wonderful too! I respect their social conservatism re Johnlock - the last two episodes have shown me that the bromance is both compelling and beautiful in itself (just not as groundbreaking as I would like, but hey you can't have everything).

**Posted by besleybean** January 6, 2014 9:21 pm

I really don't understand how much more you would want from Sherlock Holmes' stories?

**Posted by NotYourHousekeeperDear** January 6, 2014 9:36 pm

You are probably right BB. That's why John's marriage to Mary is such a Johnlock killer. I think when it was the two of them living together in Baker st, Johnlock could be a plausible modern reinterpretation of canon. But if you put Mary in the picture, and assume John has a fulfilling, happy marriage with her- it excludes this possiblility. The only Johnlock pathway left is having Sherlock pining for John which would just be completely silly and out of character (although I like to think of it as a kind of subconscious subtext in Sherlock's head/heart)

Last edited by NotYourHousekeeperDear (January 6, 2014 9:37 pm)

**Posted by Mattlocked** January 6, 2014 9:40 pm

I'm not sure AT ALL about their "social conservatism".
Maybe it's just not "and they live happily ever after" all the time!? I really hate it when every movie / show ends like that.
Just saying.

**Posted by besleybean** January 6, 2014 9:41 pm

Well I personally think Mary is gonna kick the bucket and the boys will both be back in Baker Street.
But it will still be bromance and not romance.

**Posted by Mattlocked** January 6, 2014 9:43 pm

I hope so....

**Posted by NotYourHousekeeperDear** January 6, 2014 9:57 pm

Poor old John. If that happens he is going to need some bromance to get him through...

**Posted by Ormond Sacker** January 6, 2014 10:02 pm

Well maybe "social conservatism" isn't as close as "sexual conservatism", at least in the case of Gatiss. I don't enough about Moffat's opinions on the matter to make a judgement, which is why I didn't bring him into my previous post, but Mark have stated that he most people a claim to be bisexsual aren't" plus that sexuality is more or less carved in stone and doesn't change.
Also my main issue with sexuality in this show is that it has to fit into the narrow straight/gay binary division.

**Posted by Wholocked** January 6, 2014 10:09 pm

Most of the creator's attitudes to these things come from adapting stories written in a very conservative time. The fact that they're making injokes about Johnlock is as close as it's going to get. If ACD was writing the stories now, maybe we would see a different relationships, but he was writing them at a time when homosexuality was unquestionably not acceptable. Mark & Steven have to respect that if they're going to stay as true to the spirit of the canon as they can.

As someone has said, it's unfair to judge a show creator or author based on the opinions of any of their characters when they are writing complex characters that are human. It doesn't mean those opinions are their own. The same applies to the question of homosexuality. Just because Mark is gay doesn't mean he's going to chuck the canon just to pursue some kind of personal gay representation agenda, if he even has such an agenda.

I know several men from Mark's generation who are gay and they had to learn to 'act straight' in order to get through in life, even if they are openly gay now. It creates an attitude and a value system that is different from the new generation who have grown up accepting homosexuality and gender identity differences as the norm.

You really need to keep things in perspective a bit guys ;-)

**Posted by Davina** January 6, 2014 11:25 pm

Oh how I agree with you! They have to remain, at least in part, reverential to the canon. Otherwise this would be at risk of becoming a poor pastiche which is only a reflection of what some of the fans want. This is, after all, at the end of the day, a modernisation of Sherlock Holmes.

**Posted by besleybean** January 7, 2014 6:31 am

We may be wandering off topic here.
But ok, 2 points:
Well, to begin with, I think we may need to separate the personal from the professional.
1. Yes, I too have both heard and read Mark's commnets on bisexuality and tho I kind of disagree with him, I do know what he means.
2. The only constraints on the BBC Sherlock team are the laws of the land and the rules of scheduling.
But I don;t think in terms of sex, they have ever felt constrained by either of those.
Quite simply because BBC Sherlock has nothing to do with sex.

Last edited by besleybean (January 7, 2014 5:48 pm)

**Posted by lil** January 7, 2014 5:31 pm

Speculation on the relationship between JW/SH is canon, afterall is has been going on for decades . I think it is more obvious in this modern adaptation because people today are free to voice out loud thoughts they may have had to have kept private in the 1800s .Hence all the innuendo.
It's obvious John loves both Mary and Sherlock , but in different ways. In the scene with Mrs H. It was pointed out quite nicely I thought that atm John/Mary is a more physical love than the John/Sherlock love.
However it is a fine line..how many times has is happened that loving friends have fallen in love..and ended up together? Too many to count.....

For me the real Q is Sherlocks feelings........

Theoretically in the first two series and one would assume in the next...we are left deliberatly, I think , speculating that Johnlock could happen at any time. However in this series while Mary is around it's still love for Sherlock, but not the In love kind.

So imho, Mary doesn't mean the end of Johnlock but rather a temporary pause.

I don't think it will happen on screen however ever..not in this revival anyway.. and not because of social conventions or fear of homophobia or whatever , but simply because the speculation is so much more fun and a longtime part of the Sherlock fandom.

Last edited by lil (January 7, 2014 5:33 pm)

**Posted by butterfly grl** January 7, 2014 6:41 pm

I like Mary, but my personal and I do mean personal quibble is her hair.
Sorry, but I'm an'80s American, and I just want to fluff her hair a bit. It doesn't need to be big hair, just not 1920's flapper slicked down.

**Posted by besleybean** January 7, 2014 6:52 pm

I think she looks fine.

**Posted by tonnaree** January 7, 2014 7:14 pm

I think the hair suits her face. She's very pixieish.

**Posted by Mary Me** January 7, 2014 7:22 pm

Do we judge a character now by their hair.

**Posted by besleybean** January 7, 2014 7:26 pm

I'm used to people moaning about their clothes!

**Posted by NotYourHousekeeperDear** January 7, 2014 10:16 pm

butterfly grl wrote:
I like Mary, but my personal and I do mean personal quibble is her hair.
Sorry, but I'm an'80s American, and I just want to fluff her hair a bit. It doesn't need to be big hair, just not 1920's flapper slicked down.

Oh if only the battle for John's affections could be settled by a hair styling contest- Sherlock would win hands down... sigh...

**Posted by KeepersPrice** January 8, 2014 1:17 am

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
butterfly grl wrote:
I like Mary, but my personal and I do mean personal quibble is her hair.
Sorry, but I'm an'80s American, and I just want to fluff her hair a bit. It doesn't need to be big hair, just not 1920's flapper slicked down.

Oh if only the battle for John's affections could be settled by a hair styling contest- Sherlock would win hands down... sigh...

How true is that, NotYour! Perfect!

**Posted by butterfly grl** January 8, 2014 2:30 am

Mary Me wrote:
Do we judge a character now by their hair.

No, of course not. But I believe we are allowed to have opinions about hair and clothing. Look at the johnstache controversy. No reflection on the character, simply a style choice.