I don't agree.
IMO we can't be sure that it is the sexy woman Irene Adler, Sherlock is attracted to. I'd rather say it's the intelligent woman / person. So it's not really about gender. But this would lead to another thread, where we discuss if Sherlock has any sexual interests at all.
I actually enjoy a show, where it is not predictable right from the beginning (as in too many other shows - boring), who will end up in bed with whom. So I am perfectly fine with all those "hints" to romance between John and Sherlock - but in the end it doesn't actually lead to it.
This has nothing to do with conservatism.

Last edited by Mattlocked (October 8, 2013 8:40 pm)

As you like it. Just changed my post. Language thing. 

Swanpride wrote:

I think the whole point Irene Adler was not that Sherlock was confused by her looks (he even calls it pathetic to take off her clothes), but that he was befuddled by the fact that he was unable to scan her properly. I think that was one of the reasons why she was lesbian, too, to make clear that the attraction between them was not sexual, but intelectual, about power and not about love.

 I think that is a good point Swanpride- makes me feel a bit better about it anyway! 
I recently re-read "Scandal in Bohemia" and I have to say the original was far better at showing that it was Irene's wits and not sexuality that got to Sherlock.
Another thing that struck me as someone who hasn't read Canon for a long time is how much more openly affectionate Sherlock is with John in the Canon compared to the series.  Has anyone else thought that?
 

sj4iy wrote:

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

I am a great believer/lover of Johnlock but I have become more cynical since I have been in this forum. I think the writers deliberately set out to create some sort of bromance between the characters but perhaps didn't realise how successful they would be...
In a thread about SiB , someone noted how Sherlock's response to Irene was deliberately written to show that when it comes down to it, Sherlock is a heterosexual male who is befuddled by a sexy woman, and what a shame it was they did that. I have to say I agree. i think while in some ways the writers fan the flames of Johnlock (e.g. "The somone loves you" comment by Irene,) they also show their conservativism by backing away from a more revolutionary and brave modern interpretation of Holmes and Watson as two men who form a fully romantic bond. In my opinion this is a shame.

But they never set out to make a 'revolutionary and brave modern interpretation' like that...they set out to reimagine the stories in a 21st century setting.  If they wanted to make them gay, they would have just made them gay from the start.  I don't see how a married gay head writer who helped create the show would shy away from showing two men in love on tv...if he felt it were appropriate to the story.  But he fell in love with the stories as they were and didn't want to change them from that.  Conservatism has nothing to do with it.

I guess I would like to see them fall in love and realise that this is deeper than just  friendship and that their sexuality isn't as clear as they had thought from the start. 
A lot of gay men are quite conservative and traditional when it comes to somethings- i wouldn't be suprised if Mark feels it would be too radical to interpret the Canon as such.  Also, I think we are dealing with the BBC and not HBO. 
 

I think you guys are debating something that doesn't require debate. You're questioning the decisions of the writers, and those decisions have already been explained several times.

1) The BBC Adaptation is designed to resemble canon-in-truth and canon-in-essence as much as they possibly can whilst bringing it into the 21st century. That means that Mark & Steven are not going to diverge from what occurred in canon, except where it's necessary in a modern adaptation

2) The ACD canon is so full of continuity holes it's not even funny. ACD hated the success of the Sherlock Holmes stories, he felt other things he'd written deserved the acclaim far more, and he didn't put anywhere near as much effort as an author might these days in ensuring that the character's stories were consistent. There's a famous story where Watson is referred to as James!

So, if you take those two facts (and they are facts), the BBC Sherlock is going to be less full of holes because Mark & Steven are aware of the need to fill them; but they are still using the canon as source material. Looking for evidence of Johnlock in this is fruitless.

Lastly, and largely due to ACD's lazy writing, there have been readers who have intimated that Watson & Holmes were more to each other than was described in the stories. (I can honestly say I don't know where they've gotten that from, but that's another discussion - and requires the canon to be read with it's time period in mind). Mark & Steven have said, numerous times, that the little comments they've written into the scripts are a nod to that. These are not evidence that in the BBC they have written them as having some kind of behind-the-scenes relationship, or that they are bowing to conservatism. They're making in-jokes, and they're doing it deliberately.

TL:DR - The BBC show will never have an overt Johnlock relationship as it didn't exist in the canon; however, there isn't anything wrong with us imaging one for our own entertainment

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

Hmm.. I think everyone here has made some excellent points- but I would like to put this out there-

I don't like the idea of changing genders of canonical characters at all but let's just say for argument sake, John was a woman- but everything else script wise in the BBC canon was the same.  Would we even be having this discussion?  Or would we not assume that there is something romantic developing between the two characters?

I think I'd be annoyed by it then, tbh. It has always annoyed me that there's this expectation that a hetero female and a hetero male can't just be friends. Elementary has changed John to a female, and there is nothing romantic between them either. I don't even see indications of it in that show. (Elementary is nowhere near as good a show as Sherlock, but it is more frequent!)

Whether others would see a sexual tension or not I don't know. I think it would depend a lot on what choices the actors made. Obviously a female John would not be played by Martin so the chemistry would be totally different.

SolarSystem wrote:

Wholocked wrote:

Whether others would see a sexual tension or not I don't know. I think it would depend a lot on what choices the actors made.

But that's not at all different from the Johnlock discussion we are having with the show as it is, or is it not? Some see the sexual tension between Sherlock and John, others don't see it and make absolute statements like besleybean and say "It IS bromance. It's NOT romance.". And that is all fine.

I just think it wouldn't make a whole lot of a difference if John was suddenly turned into a Joan (like in "Elementary"). You'll always have people who see sexual tension and others who don't. (And I'm not really familiar with "Elementary", but I bet there are also fans out there who do indeed see sexual tension between Sherlock and Joan.)

Oh definitely. It's the same conversation regardless of their genders

Not sure if this is up anywhere else in the forum, but I thought the trailer for Sherlock from South Korea was a definite God Yes for Johnlock believers:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/08/sherlock-watson-in-love-south-korea-ocn
 

Same here! I like Johnlock but not as a completely serious thing, just as BFFs I guess. But we all need to be careful because honestly im a directioner too and since people have been shipping larry stylinson louis cried because he says its not true and getting out of hand :/

saraothman wrote:

Same here! I like Johnlock but not as a completely serious thing, just as BFFs I guess. But we all need to be careful because honestly im a directioner too and since people have been shipping larry stylinson louis cried because he says its not true and getting out of hand :/

Well, it is a bit different.  The members of One Direction are real people, John and Sherlock are fictional characters.