Here is a little thing I wrote about Mary's words at the end of TFP. A friend added that if anyone else, e.g. Mrs Hudson, had said them people would be celebrating. We tend to overlook things when they are spoken by a character we dislike (at least I do). 

http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/156314129491/i-know-you-two-and-if-im-gone-i-know-what-you

Good point. 

This is not the place for the Mary discussion - we have some very long threads about her - just to explain my opinion about her: I do not think she brought them closer together. In fact without Mary there would have been no Sherlock almost dying, no Magnussen murder, nor mission to Eastern Europe, no rift between Sherlock and John like we saw at the end of TST, no guilt-ridden John, no guilt-ridden Sherlock. All this was caused by the writers' choice to turn Mary into the character we see now. 

And now back to Johnlock. 

SusiGo wrote:

Good point. 

This is not the place for the Mary discussion - we have some very long threads about her - just to explain my opinion about her: I do not think she brought them closer together. In fact without Mary there would have been no Sherlock almost dying, no Magnussen murder, nor mission to Eastern Europe, no rift between Sherlock and John like we saw at the end of TST, no guilt-ridden John, no guilt-ridden Sherlock. All this was caused by the writers' choice to turn Mary into the character we see now. 

And now back to Johnlock. 

 
But all this stuff is what makes a story a drama! All of that made me feel. These are obstacles for the boys to overcome. I can't imagine a good love story without them...

Last edited by ewige (January 24, 2017 11:57 pm)

Well I still see Sherlock's relationship with John as his most important relationship. And while a romantic love confession scene or a kiss would have been no surprise for me I didn't expect them to happen. If they had done it, fine but the fact we didn't get a kiss doesn't rule out the deep emotional connection we have seen between these two men. Being mostly asexual myself I don't need to see a passionate kiss to confirm that two people love each other. The only thing that makes me a bit sad is the fact that their relationship seems to be much stronger from Sherlock's side than from John's side. For Sherlock there never was even the slightest doubt that John is and always has been his top priority, whereas John did at least for a while try to have another equally meaningful relationship with someone else, and he only falls back to Sherlock when his attempt at starting a family with Mary fails (not going into analysing here whether marriage had a chance if Mary had not died because that's another big question). Sherlock made a deliberate decision to put John first and he never let him down even when John chose Mary, but John only returned to Sherlock at a point in his life when he had not many other options.

Anyway, to cut a long story short S4 did not change my view of Sherlock and John's relationship being the core of the show. The fact that I still don't like TFP has nothing to do with its implications for Johnlock and it makes me sad to see some comment on the internet implying that people don't like S4 only because they didn't get Sherlock and John kissing.

ewige wrote:

John's casual commitment is a very valid point, diva. Goes hand in hand with his trust and anger issues, imo. I think TFP clears that up a bit since the boys are attuned to each other more than ever. I think it was John's story arc, the development of his character thru some very rough patches that's also been completed in TFP. That smile on his face when Sherlock comes with Rosie towards him - I don't think we ever got to see such an unguarded contentment on his face. He doesn't look like he's unhappy and on the look out for a bus stop adventure anymore.

John's face in that scene.  Oh sweet heaven.  In the past when John smiled or laughed, you could still see he was a bit closed off, protecting himself..  John has always kept the "stiff upper lip."   In the closing when he and Sherlock are cleaning up the flat I have never see John look so casual and relaxed.  His shirt is unbuttoned! *giggle*  And then when Sherlock comes to him with Rose, John just beams.  He's more open than we've ever seen him, holding nothing back.  I was crying happy tears by this point.
 

Well, of course John is his "conductor of light" but I think there is more to it. Because in the same episode we saw Sherlock waving away a whole room full of women by saying "not you", then he sent his inner Mycroft away with the same words, coming to the conclusion that the only who mattered was John. Yes, he helps Sherlock by saving lives, yes, he helps by just listening and asking the right question, but in the context of the whole episode I would say this is about John, the man he has just lost to a woman. The man who matters most to him. 

The Spanish translation you quoted would for the THOB quote about the "conductor of light", but in this case it is not correct. 

I want to try to say something about all this. Even if that becomes a bit difficult because firstly I can not speak about emotions very well und secondary because I am not a native speaker.

Diva wrote: "the only thing that makes me a bit sad is the fact that their relationship seems to be much stronger from Sherlock's side than from John's side." And she is right, it really looks like this. But I am not sure if it really is.

Of course "Sherlock made a deliberate decision to put John first and he never let him down", as diva wrote. But sometimes ist really looks, at least since TEH, whether this relationship was more important to Sherlock than to John.

At the end of TRF, John saw Sherlock die, and he grieves very much about his death, no one doubts it. But John was at war, as a doctor even, he must have seen plenty of dead and mourning, and therefore he knows that one can sometimes only live on if one pushes away the feelings for the dead.  Those who have experienced terrible things will learn this survival tactics, or they will just not survive. And that is exactly what John does. He pushes his feelings for dead Sherlock into the background and tries to find someone else (Mary, in this case). And then Sherlock comes back. And John knows (visibly during the first seconds of the reunion scene): Sherlock is more important than Mary. But Mary does not suddenly disappear, of course. So the result is a terrible emotional mess: John wishes actually to go back to Sherlock, but he can not just leave Mary for reasons of fairness, because she did certainly help him to gain a new foothold in life after Sherlock's "death". And emotional mess ist a thing which John is not able to handle, because of PTSD. And that is typical for PTSD: it becomes confusing, and he reacts with violence against the  person who is responsible for it: Sherlock.

It would be consequent to leave Mary, but he is unable to do that. He continues to pursue his marriage plans (quite annoyed, at times), and Sherlock supporting him with that is actually counterproductive. Mary gets pregnant, and thus, things are definitely established: John would not abandon a woman who is pregnant. And then it turns out what Mary really is. And John remains faithful to her, quite obviously against his own feelings. He does not allow himself to have any emotions, so that the situation will not become completely unbearable. No emotions for Mary, and no emotions for Sherlock. Therefore the farewell at the end of HLV is so frosty.

Only Mary's death brings a change. Of  course John feels solidarity with he, because she helped him after Sherlock's "death", and because she is the mother of his child. So he mourns her. And because she died protecting Sherlock John makes him responsible somehow. But,in fact, it is Mary's death that brings John back where he belongs: now Sherlock is again the most important person in his life, without any loyalty conflicts (there is no loyalty conflict between a partner and a baby). This becomes very clear in TFP.

And, no kiss. But, I can live with that. I am not against johnlock, definitely not, and my only fanfic about ACDs "Sherlock Holmes" is slash. But: it does not really need the kiss to make it clear that this is love.

Thank you for your wonderful post, athameg! I think you gave us a very insightful look at John's state of mind!

Lovely!

I remember hating baby fics with passion a few years ago. Parentlock is a completely different matter

Thank you for the meta, Susi.

Yeah, John and his "talk to the spirits" couch I love it that Sherlock doesn't sit down. It's Mary's side (we also see that right before she leaves for the aquarium) and he's not comfortable to take over her place just yet. A very poignant acting (or writing?) choice. Sitting down on Mary's side of the couch wouldn't matter at all for a friend who doesn't see himself in the same position as Mary regarding John.

I also think that John coming to 221b from work (with his briefcase) is a very strong indication that he and Rosie live there. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Single parents don't stop by a buddy's flat on their way home to their very young child.

Besides, it looks like the outfit is the same in all these pictures (may I link directly from your post, Susi?):



John is a permanent fixture there. He comes back from work to Sherlock and Rosie.
 

Last edited by ewige (January 30, 2017 6:51 pm)