BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Dr. Watson's deduction

ewige · January 27, 2017 5:38 pm

I think it has changed in TFP.

Schmiezi · January 27, 2017 5:39 pm

ewige wrote:
I think it has changed in TFP.

I think so too!

ewige · January 27, 2017 5:45 pm

Yeah. We are invited to fill in the blanks but the boys are at ease and in sync with each other after their conversation in TLD.

Naavy · January 27, 2017 5:57 pm

I really hope so! But the same time, I'm afraid, that since John never said simple "I am sorry", and never admitted, he shouldn't treat Sherlock like he did - in future, if something goes wrong, the story repeats itself. Hopefully this time without beating, but it is not the most important point...

ewige · January 27, 2017 6:02 pm

But we don't know whether he says he was sorry or not. A lot of things are implied. I think the last montage that includes very happy John and Sherlock sort of confirms that they are, well, happy also several months into the future. Means they are happy with each other's behavior. So I think none of them does much - anything - to upset the other.

Naavy · January 27, 2017 6:10 pm

I hope, you are right! I would like to see/listen John's regrets (audience deserves it), but if we are expected to imagine this part of the story - OK, I can do it ;]

ewige · January 27, 2017 6:21 pm

I think John was a tight ball of regret by the end of TLD. I was pleasantly surprised by the things he actually said so I can forgive him some things he might have implied without saying. Letting Sherlock hold him is already A LOT after that snarl at the aquarium. The ability to accept comfort from somebody means mutual forgiveness first, I think.

Liberty · January 27, 2017 6:25 pm

I think they're fine at the end of TLD. A bit of me wants John to apologise more, another bit of me sees that Sherlock loves and understands him and that it's not necessary.

besleybean · January 28, 2017 8:46 am

But as has been said: at the the end of TFP, they seem absolutely fine.
I am a member of the audience, too and I don't feel I deserve anything.
Also, I don't know if we get to decide what Sherlock needs to hear from John, either.
And hey, can we cut John a bit of slack?
The guy is in mourning.

Vhanja · January 28, 2017 10:38 am

I think John daring to be so vulnerable in front of Sherlock - opening up about his feelings, pain and regret, crying and accepting comfort... I think that is a huge leap in his character development, something we've never seen before. And that it inself shows a level of trust bigger than can be put into words, and I think Sherlock sees that.

besleybean · January 28, 2017 10:40 am

I completely agree.

Schmiezi · January 28, 2017 12:19 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I think John daring to be so vulnerable in front of Sherlock - opening up about his feelings, pain and regret, crying and accepting comfort... I think that is a huge leap in his character development, something we've never seen before. And that it inself shows a level of trust bigger than can be put into words, and I think Sherlock sees that.

Well said!

Naavy · January 28, 2017 1:10 pm

I see, I need to explain my point... There are things, like getting married, or passing exams, when something must really happen, to make it valid. (You are not married, until both sides say "yes". Your intentions, feelings, knowledge, can't help - you must not skip this one, most important part of ceremony, or nothing happened.) I see the apology the same way, that's why i insisted, John should really say his "I am sorry".
And - Sherlock in TEH expressed his regret (and it didn't help), but John never even tried.
Sherlock forgave him, but it looks, like he is now the more sensitive man, who can better understand other people... A bit strange, isn't it? ;]

Last edited by Naavy (January 28, 2017 1:11 pm)

Schmiezi · January 28, 2017 1:14 pm

I don't think that is strange. I have always thought Sherlock to be the more sensible of them but also the one who hid / ignored that side of himself.

Naavy · January 28, 2017 1:37 pm

I would say: "that side of communication with other people" ;]

besleybean · January 28, 2017 2:59 pm

Yes.

athameg · January 28, 2017 6:43 pm

Apologies are a problem in this story sometimes. In TEH we see that Sherlock apologizes and that John practically does not react to it. And in TLD we see that John does not apologize. And obviously is not so that he does not feel sorry. John is "a tight ball of regret", like ewige wrote and that's exactly what I think. So, what is the matter?

I think I have an idea about that. And I (honestly) only came to this idea, because I know a lot about PTSD because I have PTSD myself. Whoever has PTSD, usually has experienced quite bad things, and such experiences can make people very aggressive and sometimes they can not control their aggressions. John's reaction when he attacks Sherlock is clearly abnormal. If John did not have PTSD, the attack would never have taken these forms. And John is probably conscious of this in hindsight. And from this comes the thought: I have done this, and of course it was completely unacceptable, and it should not have happened, and it would not have happened either if I did not have PTSD, and I am not blame for that disease. Somehow you do not really feel guilty and therefore you do not apologize, and the concept "apology" has little significance for you anyway. That's why John does not respond to Sherlock's apologies in TEH: an apology is not important because it does not change things. This it not a normal reaction, I know, and it is not really great, but for me it is very comprehensibly.

Vhanja · January 28, 2017 6:48 pm

Thanks for sharing an interesting insight into PTSD, I love to read about people have those kind of experiences themselves. And, yes, it sounds plausible when it comes to John.

ewige · January 28, 2017 6:50 pm

Thank you for the insight. It's a different dimension I didn't think of.

Schmiezi · January 28, 2017 7:00 pm

Thank you for sharing that with us, athameg!

BTW, another apology we never heard was Mary saying sorry to John* for shooting Sherlock. So maybe in Sherlockverse that is just how you deal with thst dort of things. :-/

*I am sure we never heard her apologize to Sherlock for shooting him but in discussion I understood that many people see her "I am sorry Sherlock, I truely am" before shooting him as an honest apology. I disagree but that is not the point here.