To me they act as a couple because they are there for each other no matter what because love.  John tells Sherlock when to keep it together and helps him up when he falls , and Sherlock does the same for John . Sex I think is one of the least important parts and easiest to do, random strangers often .

besleybean wrote:

But if Sherlock was to be interested in anyone, it would be a woman.
He's never been shown to be in anyway romantically attracted to a man.

​In ASIP, he says he's married to his work (therefore, not interested in any kind of relationship), but I think he's more categorical when he rejects the idea of having a gf ("not really my area") than when he rejects the idea of a bf (he just gives a weird look, and then says "i know it's fine") but maybe that's just me.

​And it has indeed never been stated that he was in any way attracted to a man (or, in that case, to John), but if it was so unambiguous, why so many people thought there was something between them, included Mrs Hudson, who care deeply about them, live under the same roof and had clearly no doubt they were a couple (I'm talking about her comments to John when he announced he was getting married)

​And Irene Adler? She almost outsmarted both Holmes, she's very intelligent, quite an expert in both genders... I can't imagine her saying they are a couple if she had thought that John was undisputably heterosexual or if she had thought Sherlock had no other interest in John than friendship.

​I'm not saying Sherlock couldn't be interested in a woman (as much as I dislike the idea, I can't deny he was interested in Irene, maybe it was more "intellectual" than anything else, but it still was attraction. And you don't keep someone's photograp or compose a very romantic tune if you couldn't care about them), but there has clearly been ambiguity in J&S's relationship, otherwise, people wouldn't have hinted at it.

​I think Sherlock is not attracted to a gender, just to who the person actually is.

​He is interested in Irene because she clearly impresses him and he likes the intellectual challenge.

​He is interested in John because their personalities complete each other.
 

besleybean wrote:

I'm remembering John saying to Mrs H: " of course we'll be needing two(bedrooms)".

​Yes, at that time, John was not at all attracted by Sherlock (or then, only unconsciously attracted to the danger which issued from him. It wasn't love at first sight. They immediately got on really well --friendship at first sight then-- but the romantic sentiments --in which i believe-- took a long time to develop) and Mrs Hudson had just made assumptions (only based on them being two men and deciding to live together. which is a bit of a leap, I grant it) but after having shared their everyday life (ok, not 24/24 but I guess they'd seen a lot of each other) during a couple of years, she was absolutely certain Sherlock was John's boyfriend (TEH). It was not assumptions anymore, it was absolute certainty. It had even never crossed her mind that John could be interested in women! ("You really have moved on, haven't you?")

​She is close to them, she knows them very well (and TLD just shows how much she has figured them out I think). How can she be so sure (in TEH) that they actually were a couple? Even if they weren't a couple (and they weren't, anyway), that means that to the eyes of even the people who knew them the most, they looked like a couple, acted like one.

​I can understand that people don't see Johnlock. I've always shipped M/M in fiction, so I agree that sometimes, I am so "desperate" (it's just a way of speaking huh, i'm not a freak lol) to see M/M, that I can read too more into some things and see things which are actually just the mirror of what I'd like to see.

​But when it happens, I then put things into perspective and admit I've seen too much in it.

But I just can't do that here.

​Or then, I'm not the only one seeing too much! Mrs Hudson, Irene, the two guys from THOB, and, to a certain extent, even Mary (though her words at the end of TFP can be interpreted in different ways, I agree. I'd like to think her "I know what you can become" refers to being a couple, but that can also just refers to going back to solving crimes together, even though that's already what they were doing by the time she recorded the video) and CAM (I don't remember seeing Molly or Irene in Sherlock's pressure points. But Ok, it could just mean that Sherlock cares deeply about John without his interest being romantic)

​You know what, even if I personally see a lot of things in John which could be interpreted as a romantic interest for Sherlock, if I am honest, I really can understand that people see him as heterosexual. After all, he has only dated women (and even married one!), and if it is undisputable that he cares deeply about Sherlock, I understand it can only be seen as friendship.

​But I think it's different with Sherlock.

​So yes, I can understand people who don't see Johnlock at all, but really, I find it difficult to understand (I respect your thoughts and all the non-Johnlockers ones, don't get me wrong! it just leaves me perplexed) why they don't aknowledge that there is at least, ambiguity at at least some points in the show when several characters  even aknowledge it.
 

I think, though, that the writers (and actors) have been quite clear from the beginning that it's a friendship.  They have denied Johnlock quite vehemently, most recently at the BFI screening.   We kept getting told that they did this because they lie and were hiding a plot point.  But now that they've screened what appears to be the last episode, it's clear that they haven't been lying, surely?   So add that evidence to what we've seen in the show which has always been consistent with it being a friendship, and the balance of probability is that that's what it is!  The ending leaves it open to shipping (which I'm all for!), but that's all - there's nothing actually in the show to show them getting together romantically.

I think the truth is, if they'd wanted to show a same sex relationship they would have done.  Both of them are very pro representation.  They wouldn't have hidden it away.   It looks as if what they saw in the books when they were younger (John marries Mary, Sherlock falls for the woman, John and Sherlock have a beautiful friendship), they have used in the modern version.

I read somewhere that, in Literature, when you create a character and write it, it doesn't belong to you anymore. The character's first actions trigger the next ones, and the writer no longer can do whatever he wishes for but what it's true to the character. Miguel de Unamuno (Spanish early 20th century writer) wrote a very interesting book on the matter ('Niebla', translated 'Mist' into English). His main character, Augusto Pérez, lives a non-sense life and decides to commit suicide. Then the author inserts himself in the novel as a character to chat to Augusto, and tells him that he can't kill himself, as he is just a fictional being and has to obbey the writer's plan. But Augusto tells him that he's no longer his character, that a suicide will fit his personality perfectly and the author can't go for a happy ending, because it wouldn't be serious or true.

I don't want to persuade anyone to believe in Johnlock. My point is just that, intended or not, the authors created here two characters with strong personalities that have been completed by the audience (as it is suggested as well in books like 'The Neverending story', where the real saviour of Fantastica isn't the author, nor the characters, but Bastian, the reader). And some audiencies completed them as gay because it really isn't a wild approach to the matter. Just that.

Last edited by NicoleCollard (January 18, 2017 12:00 am)

I agree that not only do the viewers "complete" the story, but that the rest of the team (other than the writers) influence the product too.  Moftiss have talked about things that have been added that they didn't write (acting, cinematography, etc.), so the show isn't just their intentions/script. 

However, I do think it all ties together so nicely as a friendship, in a way that it doesn't if you see it as romantic.  (And it some ways it's lovelier - if they are just friends, there is less to keep them together than if they are lovers, yet they do stay together because they love each other so much).  Their romantic interests are flagged up quite clearly, I think.  Irene is mentioned throughout (and I think the conversation in TAB makes it very clear).   John is clearly in love with Mary (and attracted to pretty women).   At no point is the other presented as a romantic interest. 

(People mistaking them for a couple was explained by Moftiss as a reference to TPLOSH, but of course it's natural when you see two men who are close and living together to assume, or see two men out for a meal together or on holiday together.   It seemed to stop when John got married). 

Yet the team have said Sherlock was attracted to Irene and does get flustered by her, go all gooey eyed when he knows she's saved and is still texting her. Obviously he saved her too and there is a suggestion they may have had sex.  it is her tune he plays to Euros,
There is no suggestion Sherlock ever had sex with John, not even shared a bed with him like he did Janine.
He only ever kisses females.

Ladies,
it's a little frustrating that you assume things about Sherlock and Irene the same way you admonish us for assuming them in regard to Sherlock and John.

besleybean wrote:

Yet the team have said Sherlock was attracted to Irene and does get flustered by her, go all gooey eyed when he knows she's saved and is still texting her.

You are taking liberties with your quotations, bb. The show is ambiguous about Sherlock's feelings for Irene. He did, after all, take her pulse instead of going all weak in the head and gooey-eyed (as we all were supposed to think).

The same way you keep saying that Sherlock loves John but they are still only friends, I will keep saying that Sherlock loves Irene too but only on the intellectual level, as a challenge, an unsolvable puzzle. Yes, he had a chance to have sex with her, but with John too (if we want to get ridiculous about our argumentation). Do you really think he'd be ignoring her texts after getting his leg over in Karachi? That would be a sort of disgusting behavior we don't associate with Sherlock.

besleybean wrote:

There is no suggestion Sherlock ever had sex with John, not even shared a bed with him like he did Janine.
He only ever kisses females.

Yes, he also proposes only to female/s. Also only or a case.

Liberty wrote:

If they'd wanted to avoid Sherlock playing Irene's tune, they didn't have to write that line at all (play 'you'). 

Apparently Moftiss put way less thought into the possible implications of their artistic choices than the fans
I bet they decided to include that bit not as a prove of any sexual activity on Sherlock's side but as a prompt for a very disturbing revelation about Eurus (I just love how Sherlock's hand shakes!) with an added bonus of sweet, sweet continuity.

 

Last edited by ewige (January 18, 2017 5:37 pm)

I have mentioned previously.
Sherlock may have just wanted to try sex once and a professional sex worker would be perfectly fine with that.
But Irene does seem interested in Sherlock.
Sherlock may well like her, but doesn't want to get emotionally involved...not good for his work.

Well regardless of what we think.
Steven thinks Sherlock was attracted to Irene(and possibly he should know) and Benedict thinks they had sex.
For me the question centres on if Euros was deducing that Sherlock had indeed had sex, but I'm not certain if she was.
Sherlock jumps to the conclusion that she Euros straight.