BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's violence

ancientsgate · January 11, 2017 2:39 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me.

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down.

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more.

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true).

Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

The show has so few episodes and it used to be so involved in showing casework and is now showing nonsense about Mary and the fallout from their including her in their lives, they don't have time to give us anything of substance about the backstories of any of the characters. I think what you wrote is quite plausible, because I don't know that anyone gets to be like Sherlock without some really dramatic stuff having happened to them in their past.

nakahara · January 11, 2017 2:40 pm

Lets replay:

Which mental manipulation from Sherlock was as bad as this?

Vhanja · January 11, 2017 2:43 pm

The underground scene in HLV. And perhaps also the drugging scene in HoB.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 11, 2017 2:43 pm)

ancientsgate · January 11, 2017 2:52 pm

Vhanja wrote:
........So it seems that John wasn't really ok with it, he just kept it in. Until something so traumatic happened that he finally allowed himself to let it all out. Unfortunately, by then the emotions and the trauma was so extreme that the outlet became venomous and violent.

Prisons are full of such people. In real life, that's where John would be. In the US, Sherlock wouldn't even have to press charges in an attack like that, the police would have grounds to arrest John for what he did. All of this "I forgive you, you cock of an arsehole" is one thing, but they could talk about it over a speaker phone through some plate glass at the local jail.

Vhanja · January 11, 2017 2:54 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Prisons are full of such people. In real life, that's where John would be. In the US, Sherlock wouldn't even have to press charges in an attack like that, the police would have grounds to arrest John for what he did. All of this "I forgive you, you cock of an arsehole" is one thing, but they could talk about it over a speaker phone through some plate glass at the local jail.

And that is why I keep saying that people shouldn't take this show too seriously. It's TV drama. It's just the same as showing the only physical and mental consequence of Sherlock's torture in Serbia is a two-seconds wince when he's at the barber. It's just as unrealistic. But I don't dwell on it - it's TV. It shouldn't be taken as if what happens there is the same as if it had happened in real life.

ancientsgate · January 11, 2017 3:04 pm

nakahara wrote:
Lets replay:

Which mental manipulation from Sherlock was as bad as this?

The only thing that could be worse than this is if John had taken a gun or a knife and killed Sherlock where he stood. Sherlock is gutted here, both emotionally and physically. And I swear to god, if there isn't some kind of fallout about this in their so-called friendship in the next episode, I really will throw a shoe right through my TV screen.

Preceja · January 11, 2017 3:06 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
........So it seems that John wasn't really ok with it, he just kept it in. Until something so traumatic happened that he finally allowed himself to let it all out. Unfortunately, by then the emotions and the trauma was so extreme that the outlet became venomous and violent.
Prisons are full of such people. In real life, that's where John would be. In the US, Sherlock wouldn't even have to press charges in an attack like that, the police would have grounds to arrest John for what he did. All of this "I forgive you, you cock of an arsehole" is one thing, but they could talk about it over a speaker phone through some plate glass at the local jail.

But it is crazy . If there was no serious damage done (and Sherlock was in hospital mainly due to drugs not due to injuries from John) and the hurt person does not want accuse the other, why to do it? But from our point of view US has mady really ridiculous trials that in Europe could not even get to a judge.

Kae Em · January 11, 2017 3:08 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Prisons are full of such people. In real life, that's where John would be. In the US, Sherlock wouldn't even have to press charges in an attack like that, the police would have grounds to arrest John for what he did.

Well, not every country is as keen on arresting people as the U.S. Of course also in most (or even all?) central european countries John would have to face legal consequences for what he did, even without Sherlock pressing charges. But he wouldn't have to go to jail. The court would have to take into account that the attack started off as a defence when Sherlock was armed with a knife, and it would have to take into account that John was under extreme psychological stress when the attack happened and so on. So he would have to pay a fee and probably take some anger mangement therapy, but he wouldn't be put in jail. Putting people in jail hardly ever solves a problem, but just creates more problems and increases people's chances of becoming real criminals.

ancientsgate · January 11, 2017 3:10 pm

Vhanja wrote:
and that is why I keep saying that people shouldn't take this show too seriously. It's TV drama. It's just the same as showing the only physical and mental consequence of Sherlock's torture in Serbia is a two-seconds wince when he's at the barber. It's just as unrealistic. But I don't dwell on it - it's TV. It shouldn't be taken as if what happens there is the same as if it had happened in real life.

Oh, honey, we all know it's just a TV show. Speaking only for myself, I'm not stupid, so I know it's not real life, there is no one like Sherlock in the world and never has been. But... they took these beloved characters and stuck them in modern-day London, stuck them in 221b like real people with a real Mrs. Hudson, made them dress like real people, use hair product like real people, gave John a real job like a real person, I mean, aren't we supposed to believe that they COULD be real people? The fine art of storytelling would say so, unless something is labeled as fantasy or sci-fi, which this isn't.

My fandom friends tell me that I suck at hand-waving, and I admit it, I do. Seeing characters I care about not act (and react) like real people drives me crazy. Which is why I think that after this Sunday, I'll be done with this show. Too bad, a sad way for me to end with it. We'll see, but whatever the writers do with the next ep, they better make it good (and believable) or I'm outta there.

Vhanja · January 11, 2017 3:16 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Oh, honey, we all know it's just a TV show. Speaking only for myself, I'm not stupid, so I know it's not real life, there is no one like Sherlock in the world and never has been. But... they took these beloved characters and stuck them in modern-day London, stuck them in 221b like real people with a real Mrs. Hudson, made them dress like real people, use hair product like real people, gave John a real job like a real person, I mean, aren't we supposed to believe that they COULD be real people? The fine art of storytelling would say so, unless something is labeled as fantasy or sci-fi, which this isn't.

My fandom friends tell me that I suck at hand-waving, and I admit it, I do. Seeing characters I care about not act (and react) like real people drives me crazy. Which is why I think that after this Sunday, I'll be done with this show. Too bad, a sad way for me to end with it. We'll see, but whatever the writers do with the next ep, they better make it good (and believable) or I'm outta there.

Well, it is what it is, as the saying goes. I think it's only natural. The direction a tv show goes won't work for all, and then it's only right to leave and go and find something else.

I personally love what I am seeing and I am amazed at the character development of both Sherlock and John this season. They have given us more than I had ever hoped we would get, and I am thrilled by it.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 11, 2017 3:20 pm)

tonnaree · January 11, 2017 4:11 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Preceja wrote:
nakahara - drama queen - it is a foreign language to me so I may not recognize the subtle differences but the scene seemed to me not like an accusation of Sherlock but as a reminder of his strong points which are not in long thinking about the problem in a quiet place but ability to solve problems under stress. So I understood it more like support from John's side . But as I say, I might be wrong .
Calling someone a drama queen is never a compliment. DQs are flamboyantly over the top, putting on a big show about everything and always making dramatic mountains out of unimportant molehills. They are intolerable to be around.

I have to disagree here. Context is everything! And for some people things like "drama queen" "cock" and other seemingly derogatory names can be part of affectionate teasing. It's not for everyone no, but it is for some! I'm sure you'd be horrified at the times I've called my husband a black hearted bastard or a massive dick, but in context this was normal banter between us.

In the hospital when John calls Sherlock a cock I see it as him relaxing a bit when he realizes Sherlock is ok and did have a plan. He could've said "you clever bastard" and it would've meant the same thing.

John and Sherlock are both deeply flawed men who tend to try and ignore their emotions. Because of this they have done horrible things to people they love. This does not make them monsters, it makes them human and, even when they're wrong, I will defend both of their humanity to the end of days.

Last edited by tonnaree (January 11, 2017 4:12 pm)

Ichneumon · January 11, 2017 5:04 pm

I find it interesting how it is always Sherlock John looses control with (Billy excluded) and always in a situation where Sherlock (or Billy) is not able or willing to fight back.

Do we see John physically attack Magnussen, the man who placed him in a bonfire, threatens his wife and taunts him? No.
Do we see him attack Mary, when he finds out she shot his friend and lied to him all the time?
Do we see him attack Vivian Norwood, the woman who shot his wife?
Do we see him attack Culverton in the end, the man who tried to kill his friend?
Moriarty?
Mycroft in TRF, when John believed he was responsible for giving Moriarty information to destroy Sherlock?

Naavy · January 11, 2017 5:56 pm

Ichneumon wrote:
I find it interesting how it is always Sherlock John looses control with (Billy excluded) and always in a situation where Sherlock (or Billy) is not able or willing to fight back.

Sherlock not only never wanted to fight John back - he also kept denying any fight, if possible (like in TBB - twice), and kept avoiding to be seem by John, when he had no other option but the fight. In SIB he at least did call "vatican cameos", and made John look away, and when he wanted to throw an american agent through the window, John was sent to take care of mrs Hudson.
Shooting CAM was the (probably) only act of violence, ever committed by Sherlock before John's eyes, and it was committed to protect John, and his happiness.

Any ideas, how to explain it?

Rache · January 11, 2017 6:17 pm

I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised at the seriousness of this discussion. I have been following all pages in this thread. Here's what I think:

While I think it is totally NOT ok in real life to beat someone (and especially your best friend) up like this, I have no problem whatsoever with it in the show.
For me it works in the show, it works for the drama and by all means it works for Sherlock and John.
That's it.

I could stop now, but there is more to my mind.
I fully agree with what Vhanja wrote earlier. I even like it that the writers dare to go that way. Making our heroes (and it's especially John's turn now) flawed and greyer than ever. It is difficult writing and takes great care to manage that the viewer will still love the character, that you are supposed to identify with, despite his actions. And this fully worked with me.

Of course this scene brought strong feelings and tears to my eyes. Both hurt very bad: 1)Seeing John out of his mind and 2)Sherlock letting it happen.

And I think from John's point of view this scene was very extreme. Sherlock has allowed himself to be on drugs for weeks, is now coming up with a "case" that John believes Sherlock has made up (in his drug state), drags John into this stupid and pointless thing, accuses an innocent man to be a serial killer, loses his mind completely when the daughter comes into the room and is about to attack an innocent man with a scapel. (At this point of the timeline John has no reason to assume that Smith is bad, has he?)

One last point: By mistake it happened that the beating turned out to be painfully bitter beyond anything to me when I first watched it. The fault of reading too much fan theories..... Remember that theory that Sherlock was telling everything that happened in T6T to his therapist, but didn't tell what really happened? Maybe told it in a way that would show him in a better light? I thought, that when he said "I killed his wife" and John said "Yes, you did!", this was the truth being revealed to us. That it was Sherlock who shot Mary.
My mistake with fan theories. ;)
But as I said, disregarded of that, my point of view hasn't changed that I like the scene.

Last edited by Rache (January 11, 2017 6:22 pm)

besleybean · January 11, 2017 7:41 pm

John could simply have restrained Sherlock...but Sherlock knew he had to let John get some of that violence out.

SusiGo · January 11, 2017 7:42 pm

Naavy wrote:
Ichneumon wrote:
I find it interesting how it is always Sherlock John looses control with (Billy excluded) and always in a situation where Sherlock (or Billy) is not able or willing to fight back.
Sherlock not only never wanted to fight John back - he also kept denying any fight, if possible (like in TBB - twice), and kept avoiding to be seem by John, when he had no other option but the fight. In SIB he at least did call "vatican cameos", and made John look away, and when he wanted to throw an american agent through the window, John was sent to take care of mrs Hudson.
Shooting CAM was the (probably) only act of violence, ever committed by Sherlock before John's eyes, and it was committed to protect John, and his happiness.

Any ideas, how to explain it?

Because he is the only person who attacked him and whom he truly loves?

Liberty · January 11, 2017 8:13 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me.

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down.

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more.

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true).

Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

I have to agree, that there was something awfully familiar about this scene. I found it even more so in the scene in TEH - that passive acceptance, the person not even defending themselves because they know the abuser has to get it out of their system.

But I don't think that's what any of them were trying to portray. The fact that they did portray it so accurately - looking on the bright side, I like to think that maybe none of them have been in that situation, so didn't realise exactly what they were showing!

Preceja · January 11, 2017 8:40 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true).

Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

You really see what you want to see,maybe based on your bad experience. But I do not see anything of it there in relation to John, just the oposite . The atmospere is very relaxed,, finally. He just shows concern for friend where he asks if he is OK. And doubt what to do with his life now, after Mary's sacrifice. The only moment when he is a bit uncertain is when they speak about Rosie and is afraid if John has anything about it . But he has right to decide as father.

Vhanja · January 11, 2017 10:37 pm

Rache wrote:
I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised at the seriousness of this discussion. I have been following all pages in this thread. Here's what I think:

While I think it is totally NOT ok in real life to beat someone (and especially your best friend) up like this, I have no problem whatsoever with it in the show.
For me it works in the show, it works for the drama and by all means it works for Sherlock and John.
That's it.

Very well put. I do think that this is sometimes taken a bit too seriously, and too much real life is put into it.

Preceja · January 11, 2017 11:15 pm

Violence , unlike many other topics here , concerns many people in reality, everybody has met it in some form personally, some people have really bad experience. No wonder that it evokes emotions.