Yes. What I like is the idea that they are in similar in many ways but still very different in the end. Mary never shows Sherlock's selflessness, for example. They have a similar basis but what counts is what they make of it. And while Sherlock will become a good man, I do not have the same expectations for Mary. 

While a few of those comparisons are a bit far-fetched, I generally agree that those two have more in common than meets the eye. The love we have for Sherlock can sometimes blind us to the fact that he is a rather dark and complicated character, not one of the angles, indeed. And this surely is true for Mary, too.

Yes, interesting. And in series 3 Magnussen only really appeared in one episode. Moran and Small were no real characters at all. The series 3 baddies were Magnussen and Mary so I can imagine something similar for S4 as well. 

Liberty wrote:

I was just saying in the other thread, that I suspect the "final" villain is going to be closer to home.  After S3 I kind of wanted it to be Mary, but I'm starting to think that it's almost too obvious (so many indications), and I'd prefer something that's more of a surprise.  On the other hand, I don't want to lose any of the other characters, but am happy to lose Mary.  And she could be really interesting, possibly a more nuanced baddie than Moriarty, great as he is. 

So far, Moriarty is the one who has kept coming back - he's been there in some form at the end of every series, and also TAB.  But there could quite possibly be a Moriarty/Mary connection (there have been a few hints). 

This!

Two thoughts:
1 At first, I was happy about "dangerous" because it could mean dangerous for John and Sherlock. But of course it could also mean dangerous to villains, like superhero Mary who saves the Day more often than once. I would hate that.

And that leads me to
2 Can somebody PLEASE tell me what reason there is to call her a heroine????? That word really made me angry! There is absolutely nothing heroic about her.

She might end up as a "flawed heroine" by sacrifcing her life for Sherlock and/or John. I don't think Amanda could've said "villain" as one of the words anyhow, as that would be too revealing. (You can see that she gives it quite a bit of consideration as to not spoil too much).

I just remember the time Amanda referred to Mary as a "F**king psychopath."

I made a long, long post here, and my cat deleted it.  So in brief (spoilers for TST).  Leaving aside the ambiguous message at the end (is it earnest or sinister?), and the fact that it might all be mind palace ... we had quite a few of our questions about Mary answered.

She did work for Mycroft/the government.
We know what AGRA stands for.
We know her real first and middle names.
We know what her freelance work was, and it wasn't quite as awful as Magnussen implied.
We know that John and Sherlock weren't plotting against her, and John's prepared words were genuine.
She did apologise to Sherlock, finally (although it seemed strange to me that those were her dying words).

It surprised me that Mary was part of a group of four as I'd imagined her as a lone worker.  I suppose that was a reference to The Sign of Four.   I was surprised that she didn't even consider that if she got out alive, others might have done.   In fact three of the four got out alive - only one died at the ambush.  I'm still puzzled about Mary's flashy wedding, when she was trying to hide - and in fact the wedding pictures on the internet were one of the ways AJ tracked her down.

We never did find out where Mary was from originally - we know she's not English, but that was never explained.  I wondered if plane bit was a hint that she was American (she worked for the CIA previously, so that would make sense).  But she never gives up on the accent, even when alone with Sherlock.  And AJ seems to think she's English too ("the English woman"), so her identity was changed before AGRA?

Although throwing herself in front of a bullet was so kind of corny that I think almost laughed at that point, there was a lovely kind of symmetry there - that she had almost killed Sherlock by shooting him in the chest, and she saves him by making sure she's shot in the chest instead of him.   Although she made much more of a fuss about dying than he did.  I'm kidding - I thought it was a very moving scene!  But interesting that the non-kill shot (as it turned out to be) made Sherlock unconscious very quickly, whereas the kill shot left Mary conscious and chatty to the end.

Last edited by Liberty (January 2, 2017 9:51 am)

I made a little thread for it over here http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=7176

I have to say, I was very taken aback when I saw it.  The rest of the episode seemed very straightforward regarding Mary, and it was nicely tied up at the end, leading into the next "case".  Then - wow!  I felt it was very sinister, and implied that Mary had been plotting against Sherlock all along.

Then I came here, and realised that people saw it as just Mary warning Sherlock that it was going to be difficult.  And I can kind of see that now - I can watch it and see it as an earnest "Go to hell (to save John), Sherlock".   Which makes sense, given that she died for Sherlock, and isn't around to protect John.  I personally think it has something to do with bus stop lady.   Mary knows John has been targetted, and I don't mean romantically.

But I do think it's ambiguous.  Deliberately ambiguous.  Hence my disclaimer above, when posting what we know about Mary.  If she means "Go to hell" in a sinister way, then it changes everything.

Just a question: Why did Mycroft never say anything about Mary? Not a warning to John or Sherlock? He must have known that marrying a woman like her would endanger his brother and yet he never mentioned it.