SusiGo wrote:

Some interesting thoughts about representation (not from a teenager):

http://sherlockedgay.tumblr.com/post/154976476199/why-queer-fans-deserve-better-on-queerbaiting-and

It's beautifully said.
My only issue with this argumentation is that equality means equal rights and not any kind of special dispensation for the queer community.
I've grown up watching a lot of Star Trek, later Stargate and BSG where my favorite straight couples' love went unspoken for hundreds of episodes - not because TPTB were straightbaiting (is it a word?) but because the shows were about something else (being no romcoms). I will also take pining and UST over an ER in a fictional story anytime cause they are more interesting to watch.
So I don't see why Moftiss have to make johnlock physical or awknowledge anything just because John and Sherlock are of the same sex while countless other shows keep their straight couples without any romantic resolution. Equal rights mean equally painful pining for everyone ;)

Last edited by ewige (December 26, 2016 1:50 pm)

I'd agree with the writer there that providing fuel for fanfiction is a long way from actual representation.   Not that I think same sex friends should always have to become same sex lovers, of course!   But I can understand why some people who are expecting a JL ending would not feel happy with a more ambiguous ending. 

I suppose it raises an interesting question - would the ship have fueled so much fanfiction and so on, if it had been explicit from the start?  There is so much fanfiction pairing people who aren't canon couples ... and I suppose TJLC and all the analysis and so on wouldn't exist if the relationship was an overtly "romantic" one. 

Anyway, we'll see what happens soon.   It's a bit unfair, because it won't be a problem for those of us who don't believe in it, if it does actually happen - we're not invested in it not happening.  But I can see it might be a problem for people who are invested in it happening if it doesn't happen.   I think it's a shame that this particular couple have become the focus of LGB representation and hopes, when it looks as if it will disappoint so many people.  I don't know if that's just evidence of the lack of LGB pairings in popular shows (or perhaps, as I was wondering, because people tend to ship characters who aren't - yet - a couple). 

I'm a bit late and would like to say something about why JL community seem to be more investigative and writing more about the show. From what I have seen so far, non-Johnlockers have no agenda, nothing they feel they have to prove.
Personally I might try to set the facts straight if someone's argumentation insults my intelligence, but in general I don't care. If Moftiss decide to make the boys a couple, I would be disappointed that they decided to trivialize their relationship making it just another romance, as I didn't like Sherlock still having a drug issue, but as far as the story is well written, it should be okay. It's Mofftiss' sandbox and their toys, and nobody forces me to watch what I don't want to.

So there is no reason for analyzing the color of John's shirts or the lighting in the bar. If I want to read about the backgrounds I will rather read something from the makers themselves. There are be some interesting pieces made by fans (like the one about the wallpapers or the magpie symbolism) but generally I don't like when someone is telling me what to think.

I'm not an expert here, so feel free to correct me, but I also have the impression that other shippers are well aware of their ships being impossible in the show's universe, so their works stay where they belong: in the realm of fan-arts and slash fiction. Only the TJLC-ers are still trying to convince us that we are all wrong, that the makers have an evil plan and the whole world is homophobic because they don't see straight friends as lovers.

PS: Edited because of a misunderstanding.

PS2: If JL doesn't happen I suspect the hardcore followers will find thousands small hints to go on with the theory. The makers would have to kill both protagonists as old men, happily married to women, and having a bunch of kids each… but I'm afraid even this wouldn't be enough. "=10pt=10pt=11pt=10ptYou can’t kill an idea, can you? Not once it’s made a home…"

Last edited by JP (December 26, 2016 6:31 pm)

JP wrote:

Only the TJLC-ers are still trying to convince us that we are all wrong, that the makers have an evil plan and the whole world is homophobic because they don't see straight friends as lovers.

It does look like TPTB are speaking to us more or less indirectly. I agree that some TJLC arguments are a stretch, others are open to interpretation, but the remainder are there and seem legit to me Yes, TJLCers want everything to be clever, like Sherlock, but Moftiss do encourage such thinking! It's not necessarily an evil plan, just a plan.
I certainly don't see non-johnlockers as homophobic, seeing how it has nothing to do with anything here, actually. Their chemistry either clicks for you or it doesn't *shrugs*
And then it's about sharing your finds of proof with a like-minded community and waiting to be proven right.

Last edited by ewige (December 26, 2016 5:26 pm)

JP wrote:

Ewige, I came upon this kind of argumentation: "you don't want JL to happen because you are a homophobe."
Wondering "how on earth Mark can be against JL", btw, belongs to the same category for me.

Pfft, that homophobe argument is a lazy one, don't pay attention to those people
I guess people have different reasons to be against JL, but the part of me that doesn't want anything definite on screen argues that too much tension, too much fun would be gone. I love guessing and chasing evidence
Mark could be against that for the same reasons or because it's not the story they are telling.
I'm basically curious to see what they want to tell us because at this point different interpretations are possible even if we all are talking about love between two best friends. There's always the question whether making it physical really means it's a "better" love, the next step?

Last edited by ewige (December 26, 2016 7:30 pm)

I too think that the romance is the arc holding the series together but who the heck knows what resolution is the most satisfying one for Moftiss? They never told us "how it really happened" and were very smug about that, too.. Just an example of leaving stuff unexplained even tho people had been speculating about it for years.
Maybe they wanted to tell us that the mechanics were not important, just the emotional impact? The same argumentation could work really well with the JL confirmation too.

Last edited by ewige (December 26, 2016 7:50 pm)

It was never ambiguous to me. IF I saw any signs of ambiguity, John marrying Mary would end it.

Plus the impression I've got from TPLOSH as being anyhow connected to JL, was Watson freaking out about what people might say (which is clearly the source of the running joke in the series) after Holmes clearly told a lie to avoid a delicate situation.

JP and people that do not see any romantic arc it would be interesting if you could say if you think John would of married Mary had Sherlock not faked his death , and if not why?
Thanks.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (December 27, 2016 12:52 am)

Mothonthemantel wrote:

JP and people that do not see any romantic arc it would be interesting if you could say if you think John would of married Mary had Sherlock not faked his death , and if not why?
Thanks.

I'm not sure.  My first thought was "not", because Sherlock usually gets in the way of John's courtships, and the girlfriends don't want to play second fiddle.  John went right through the relationship with Mary to as far as a proposal, without Sherlock ever "getting in the way", and if he hadn't had that Sherlock-free period, would it have happened?

But then, when Sherlock does come back, it doesn't put the marriage off course at all.   And I do wonder if Mary is different to the other girlfriends.    She likes Sherlock instantly, and encourages John and Sherlock to go off on adventures - she's not jealous.   And Sherlock likes her more than John's other girlfriends. 

I think it might have been more subtly difficult if Sherlock had been around.  When would John move out of 221B, for instance?  So I think perhaps the relationship might have progressed more slowly.  Perhaps John might not even have felt such a need for marriage if he hadn't experienced a huge loss - I don't know.   But I do think it's certainly possible that John would still have married Mary.  
 

SusiGo, what is Mark's take on TPLOSH and where I can read/hear his own words about it?

As for John marrying, I 100% agree with Liberty.

Plus I don't think that Sherlock had to be dead to make the marriage possible. It was just helpful he was not around for a while. John dated women or tried to date some constantly (he clearly tried to hit on Anthea and on the women who was sent for him by Irene).
It was surely easier for John to let a relationship grow, without being constantly on some case with Sherlock, who was all but an easy boyfriend's friend. The scenes with Jaeanette in TSIB show it very clearly.

Victorian Mary was not really a character in canon, was she? She surely was happy just being married and staying at home, something that would be a bit out of place in the modern world. And surely boring as hell.

I think modern Mary, unlike other women in John's life, is the right person in the given constellation. She is able to handle the situation without trying to get between Sherlock and John, she likes Sherlock and is clever enough to actually be respected by him.