I'm sorry you feel guilty, Ukaunz, and I know it's not for me to say, but it bothers me that people should feel guilty about this sort of thing.   I tend to think of slash fiction as more of a woman thing (although obviously there are male readers and writers too), rather than a gay thing - it's more about women's sexuality and romantic feelings than it is about men's.    I don't know why exactly slash appeals to quite a large group of women, and I've gone through several theories which may be true for some and not for others - including straight women finding it hot (and why not?  If you fancy men, then why not read about a couple where you fancy both of them?), women using it to explore their own sexuality and romantic feelings, a desire to explore men or the masculine side of themeslves, the fact that there's a bit of distance (you're not comparing yourself to the protaganists, the relationship is one you'll never be in, etc.), I've even thought about more negative ideas like women setting men above themselves (controversial I know, and I'm sure not universal, but occasionally I've had that feeling). 

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I don't really know what the cause is and it might be different for everybody, but this does seem to be a feature of a large group of women's sexuality, and to say it's wrong, that it's appropriating or fetishising, etc., can come across as an attempt to diminish women's sexuality.    There's nothing wrong with being more emotionally (or sexually!) engaged by a male/male story than with other pairings.   It's about you, not about the men.  And I don't mean at all to be dismissive about gay men - just saying I don't think this is what it's about. 

(As an aside, I don't think it's really related to homophobia or lack of, except that if you were pretty homophobic you might avoid the subject altogether.   But shipping male characters is neither homophobic or the opposite). 

besleybean wrote:

I have said it before and say it again, somebody needs to do a Phd study on this: why are fan girls obsessed with seeing hot male leads get it on? Guilty as charged. But I feel I do recognise when that is not what is being shown.

Actually, I love reading scientific works about fandoms and their characteristics. I wish we had more works like that, and could discuss them here. Because sometimes I think, when I talk to people, they are like "fan talking nonsense, dismissed". I tried conversations and each time I wish I had like statistics to work with. It's like fandoms are a world on their own, but I think, there is so much happening, it should be visible. Like, having impact. I mean, not the fan stuff itself, but what we explore, discuss, realise about society... I think, e.g. with bestselling books, it's often done in articles, reviews, there's open discussion. I feel that fandoms keeps a lot of valuable insights to themselves.

I once read a Master Thesis, maybe I'll find it again somewhere, not exactly sure about the topic but it had statistics and it totally blew my mind how many of the female slash fanfic readers identified as bisexual or lesbian. I expected standard distribution (is that the word?), I mean the same proportion as in general society, but that wasn't what it said. There was also a conclusion saying sth like that fandoms offer minorities a room to explore their ideas which they maybe cannot explore as freely in society? (I seem to struggle to find the fitting words...)

I remember reading that was important for me. Because for me, fandom was for quite a time exactly that room. I mean, a room where people are open-minded. Or that's how I perceived fandoms, when I first encountered them (back then, it was Harry Potter fandom - the first I was active enough in to get a feel for it).
 

Last edited by Whisky (June 10, 2016 1:05 pm)

Just start a poll, and whoever wants to participate, could do so.
See, I learn great things about myself everyday on this forum. Right now I've learned that I'm fine to share my sexual identity, but not my social economic status, on an internet forum

I listened to the Andrew interview, and I don't get the part some of you struggled with... I think there's a part where he says, he doesn't think it's good if characters are reduced to (sexuality?)... just to feed a frenzy. And that peoples sexuality is not there to tittilate people?
But it's not the sexuality of characters that does that, is it? It's because it's hot stuff, in ways of action, setting, development, emotions, ... but that's got nothing to do with sexuality itself, does it?
And, I mean, the rest is the old story - if someone doesn't like reading slash fiction, maybe he shouldn't, and keep from (negative) commenting.
 

Not strange Whisky.  Everyone has there sensitive points. 
Me, I'll tell you all about my sex life and how much my house cost, but I rarely talk about my health. 
*shrug*  Don't really know why.

But, I'm specifically interested in our forum.  No one would have to participate if they didn't want to and all answers would be anon.  Don't care who's a slasher.  Kind of already know that. 

I would like to take part as well.

Edit: what is that about being a monority? It seems to be quite a topic. Why?

Last edited by Schmiezi (June 10, 2016 5:41 pm)

Yes, I am sure there is not just one explanation. There is a lot to think about.

The quote you posted, Whisky, about subverting heteronormativity and such, I think does come into play with fanfiction. Not only sexuality, but gender, too. While I don't see it necessarily being part of the show, I have enjoyed ficsoff Sherlock, or Mycroft, or John being trans, and there are quite a few people for whom having those stories is important.

While it may seem puzzling for women to be subverting gender inequality with male-male slash, homophobia is often tied to sexism towards women, since gay men are considered feminine by homophobic people. At least, that's the stereotype. While of course there's nothing wrong with feminine men (who liked gender roles, anyway?) but in these slash stories people explore relationships between men that might not otherwise seem very feminine.
I feel like I may have lost where I was going with that, but I think I made some sense.

And then, something more straightforward, fanfiction is written about characters we are already invested in. So it's not hard to make the leap, to some extent, to any other points of identification, whether that be sexuality, gender, or anything else really. Asexual Sherlock, gay Sherlock, trans Sherlock, deaf Sherlock. I've seen fanfics and/headcanons about all of those.

Sometyhing about a coon Johnlock narrative that, when I have read them and enjoyed them (at least some parts) is the friends becoming romantic partners narrative. While what I wanted in my own life was not a relationship that included sex, I had a friend who I was in love with, but that didn't happen. I am pretty much over it now, and staying friends is great, but for a while that narrative fulfilled something I had never gotten to have, never will have. So even if a romantic and/or sexual Johnlock story is not my first choice, I could never fully dismiss it. I am not into it, I'm not, but that one aspect, when it would come up, being in love with a friend and finding out they feel the same, satisfied something when I needed it at that particular time. It wasn't the sex, but that moment of recognition.

Last edited by Yitzock (June 11, 2016 1:53 am)

I think Johnlock is slightly different - it seems not be about shipping them as such, but about a theory that the writers are shipping them in the show.   Whereas what I'm talking about is more of a general thing, about women liking to write/read fiction about male/male pairings.  In that case, people are choosing the pairing based on the sex, at least to some extent.   Not to dismiss what you said at all - it's really interesting, but just saying that if it was representative (and no reason it needs to be representative - I'm sure where I'm coming from isn't representative either!), you might not expect male/male pairings to be a phenomenon in a way that pairings involving women don't seem to be.   (Of course, in fan fiction, that could just indicate that there are better written, more engaging male characters in the canon than female). 

I suppose it's an interesting question that you've raised - if John and Sherlock were a het pairing (as in Elementary, I suppose - I haven't seen it), would people feel the same about their relationship?   I think you're saying you would, Schmiezi, but I have a feeling it might not be the same for everybody.    I'm not even talking about sexual orientation here, more about there being something about them being two men, maybe. 
 

Schmiezi wrote:

You guys all THINK so much about it. I just read Johnlock fics and it touches my heart. That's it.

And I am criticising neither you nor me. I am just wondering why I never gave it much thought.

Maybe it can also be explained with my sexuality. I don't fall in love with or have a crush on men or women but people.

And I guess I kind of see Johnlock the same way. To me, their souls (in need of a better word) fit perfectly so I imagine them being lovers and soul mates at the same time. To me, it would make no difference if they were both men or man and woman or two women.

That's also why I am so annoyed by the "But John is not gay" argument. He doesn't have to be to fall for Sherlock's soul. He doesn't have to have a label to be in love.

Wow, what a wonderful post, Schmiezi, thank you so much for that. You've expressed my feelings exactly. Especially the "falling in love with people" part is hitting the nail on the head for me. And the best example that this can work on a tv show - and I know I'm repeating myself here - is Ianto Jones in "Torchwood". The way he explains to his sister why all of a sudden he has fallen in love with a man is just beautiful and makes perfect sense.
And by the way, when I'm watching a tv show or a film it's not all that important whether or not they're giving me two men or two women or a man and a woman as a possible pairing. It's the chemistry that needs to be right. That's why Holmes and Watson in "Elementary" never did anything for me (although I guess their chemistry is getting better in later seasns), but Sherlock and John in BBC "Sherlock" made me go "Whoa!!" right from the beginning - and in my case the beginning was ASiB, because that was the first episode I ever saw. And seeing Sherlock and John there at the pool, their lives in danger and all that... I immediately felt there was more going on there than just your 'normal' male friendship.
 

I honestly can't remember how I felt either when I first read Canon or saw Rathbone/ Brett...let alone think where I was in my own personal journey at the time!
I certainly know I was aware of gay relationships from at least age 11 and I definitely remember shipping my fave male pop stars!
With BBC Sherlock: I can only repeat when I first saw the trailer I thought: ooh, are they going down the gay route?  I do hope so(as that, since being adult, has always been my personal interest).
But certainly by ep 2, I had decided that this was obviously just a close, male friendship.
Incidentally, can I explore that 'more than a normal male friendship' thing? I still remain unsure at exactly what contributors mean by this. Are people really unaware of such close, loving, male friendships in real life?
Directly with Holmes-Watson, just look how Downey and Law's partnership bubbled over into real life?
In literature, too..I always remember Michael Henchard and Donald in The Mayor of Casterbridge.
Again from a Brit perspective, I always cite the TV 'couple' Ant and Dec. Definitely not a couple, but virtually joined at the hip.
I think we also need to take account of Mark and Steven's own comments about how guys become close friends, too. To paraphrase they(maybe Steven) said: they just meet, they like each and that's it. Often it's something unspoken but they just like each pther then and so there after.
On your final point.
No, it doesn't matter at all.
Except in any instance you feel you are being accused of homophobia, just because you don't happen to see a gay paring.

Last edited by besleybean (June 12, 2016 7:24 am)