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May 1, 2016 4:25 pm  #3421


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think the Mary he fell in love with is a fiction. I think the warm, funny and caring Mary that he got to know and fell in love with is just as valid and real as the cold and calculating assassin part of her. She would be less interesting if she was that one-dimensional. 

I feel that the "problems of the past"line has to do with him not judging her og nosing into her old affairs, but that he demands of her to let him in on any new affairs that would pop up.


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May 1, 2016 5:27 pm  #3422


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It does seem that way on the surface , that was a deliberate choice of Johns to not read the memory stick though. Mary claimed John wouldn't love her anymore if he did , which makes me wonder , if Marys past does turn up will our sympathies lie with her - or the people that hate her .
Johns decision here seems naive and dangerous especially considering John , baby and Sherlock are now in the line of fire.
Personally I think Marys ghosts turning up would be an obvious plotline and the first rather than the last thing we expect.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

May 1, 2016 5:49 pm  #3423


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I really don't think Sherlock would leave John with Mary, if he thought he was in any danger from her.


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May 1, 2016 5:52 pm  #3424


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Vhanja wrote:

I don't think the Mary he fell in love with is a fiction. I think the warm, funny and caring Mary that he got to know and fell in love with is just as valid and real as the cold and calculating assassin part of her. She would be less interesting if she was that one-dimensional.

I agree.

I feel that the "problems of the past"line has to do with him not judging her og nosing into her old affairs, but that he demands of her to let him in on any new affairs that would pop up.

She probably will, and it'll be interesting to see how she, John, and Sherlock deal with them.  I wonder if the new affairs will turn out to be her past catching up with her in one way or another.

I don't believe that Sherlock would either, besleybean.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (May 1, 2016 5:53 pm)

 

May 1, 2016 8:52 pm  #3425


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think, at some point-- John has to accept responsibility for his choice to stay with Mary. Sherlock, at this stage in the game, can't really force John to leave her, if he doesn't want to... (as much as I hate it!) 
This is John's baby, now. (Pun intended.) 

 

May 1, 2016 8:54 pm  #3426


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Just possibly John loves Mary and therefore willing to do what ever it takes to protect her.


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May 1, 2016 8:55 pm  #3427


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

If it's taken at face value (assuming it isn't part of a plot by John and Sherlock, etc., etc.) it really does mean that John feels it's not his business.  I think he knows it might be hard to accept, and that may be why he destroys the memory stick.  Possibly, he has decided he wants to stay with her and doesn't want to make that any more difficult for himself by giving himself extra difficult information to come to terms with.  But "not my business" is recognition of the fact that things she did before they met weren't to do with him (whereas deceiving him was - that's what he forgives, I think.  I know she shot Sherlock too, but that's not really what John gets angry about at 221B - it's not what he takes personally).

But yes, the "problems of the future" definitely suggest that he knows it's not over for her.  It's a red flag that it's not going to be OK from now on, and John suspects that.  Something is going to happen involving Mary, one way or another.  "My privilege" is very forgiving, though.  It seems to mean that he feels lucky to be the one with her, helping her deal with those future problems.   I can definitely see why some people see it as romantic (the only reason I can't quite get there myself is because I feel Mary is still a bit of a mystery to me, even if she isn't to John, and because S4 is such an unknown.   Maybe it will feel more romantic in retrospect). 

I think my gut feeling is that this is genuine on his part.  (I can see a little bit of a parallel with John's attitude to Sherlock after the fall - where it's the personal aspect that really bothers John, his fury at the deception and the pain it caused him, and his forgiveness of that later)

I agree-- reluctantly-- but, I do agree. And, I gotta say, it makes me--a bit salty with John. I find myself having a tough time with this. 

 

May 1, 2016 9:21 pm  #3428


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Lola Red wrote:

For some reason John does not seem to care about the damage done to Sherlock, that seems to be between Mary and Sherlock for him (and for reasons I have stated before, I can find I can believe that Sherlock would forgive her). So for him, is is solely the lying part that concerns him and I can see him forgive that, too.

Yes, it seems to me too that HLV John cares shit about Sherlock´s injury and near death. If the damage was not done to him personally, by lying or otherwise, then lions can eat his friends for all he cares. 

Lola Red wrote:

I think the problems of the past/problems of the future means that he does not want to have anything to do with AGRA (hence literally burning her past), but as long as she is satisfied with truly leaving that part of her life behind, he will protect Mary Watson. 

But the people Mary murdered, their relatives that cry for her blood and all the enemies she made that way didn´t burn together with the stick, so... very naive choice, IMHO.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

May 1, 2016 9:24 pm  #3429


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But we can't help who we love and if we truly love, we stand by them to the bitter end.


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May 1, 2016 9:28 pm  #3430


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm not sure if I would stand by hubby to the bitter end if I would notice today that he was a serial killer in the past....

@nakahara "If the damage was not done to him personally, by lying or otherwise, then lions can eat his friends for all he cares."  I don't like what I read, but maybe you are right.
Or.... sarcasm?


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May 1, 2016 9:30 pm  #3431


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

But we can't help who we love and if we truly love, we stand by them to the bitter end.

He doesn´t even know her name.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

May 1, 2016 9:30 pm  #3432


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think people are allowed to redeem themselves and maybe John thinks this, too.


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May 1, 2016 9:36 pm  #3433


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So again, if your husband would have been a killer in his past....  it would be okay for you?

Especially if he would tell me: Don't look at this stick, you won't love me anymore.
Highly suspicious for me. I couldn't sleep anymore.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

May 1, 2016 9:36 pm  #3434


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Mattlocked wrote:

@nakahara "If the damage was not done to him personally, by lying or otherwise, then lions can eat his friends for all he cares." I don't like what I read, but maybe you are right.
Or.... sarcasm?

No, merely an agreement with Liberty and Lola, that HLV John doesn´t see to be concerned about Mary shooting Sherlock at all. He is disturbed he is being lied to, yes, but doesn´t care Sherlock was shot, nearly died and is in horrible pain after both injury and surgery that followed.... His "you won´t need morphine" speech was a good indicator of that.

This made it really hard for me to take his "concern about Sherlock doing drugs" in TAB seriously....


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

May 1, 2016 9:38 pm  #3435


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

I think people are allowed to redeem themselves and maybe John thinks this, too.

The thing is we need to be shown Mary being redeemed.  So far she has done nothing to deserve redemption.


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May 1, 2016 9:40 pm  #3436


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

She's given up her past.
If Moriarty did the same, I would forgive him too.


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May 1, 2016 9:43 pm  #3437


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

Mattlocked wrote:

@nakahara "If the damage was not done to him personally, by lying or otherwise, then lions can eat his friends for all he cares." I don't like what I read, but maybe you are right.
Or.... sarcasm?

No, merely an agreement with Liberty and Lola, that HLV John doesn´t see to be concerned about Mary shooting Sherlock at all. He is disturbed he is being lied to, yes, but doesn´t care Sherlock was shot, nearly died and is in horrible pain after both injury and surgery that followed.... His "you won´t need morphine" speech was a good indicator of that.

This made it really hard for me to take his "concern about Sherlock doing drugs" in TAB seriously....

 
Hm... yes. Sad but true.
I mean, he was really angry, and he was concerned when Sherlock nearly broke down in the flat.
But then there really was never a question after the hiatus like "where have you been?" "what did you do?" or only "why?", was there?

But I'm off topic here, as this is not about John and Sherlock. 


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

May 1, 2016 9:43 pm  #3438


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

She's given up her past.
If Moriarty did the same, I would forgive him too.

 
Wow. You must be a saint.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

May 1, 2016 9:45 pm  #3439


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Not at all.
But I can understand that John wants to think the best of Mary.


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May 1, 2016 9:49 pm  #3440


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, he's stupid.


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"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

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