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April 15, 2016 5:19 pm  #3161


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

None of that, actually.
To take a few steps back, I actually think it might matter to Mycroft if Sherlock and John have forgiven her.
Surely they were the injured parties?


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April 15, 2016 5:22 pm  #3162


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

Unless I am misunderstanding the word, it'll only be 'insightful' if proved correct.

 
Don't worry, nobody is forced to read something 


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... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 15, 2016 5:28 pm  #3163


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

There's one thing I can not get past.
Sherlock was dying.  His heart had stopped and yet he dragged himself back to life. 
Why?
Because I voice in his subconscious said "That wife, John Watson is definitely in danger."

Why did the writers put it this way?  There are many other ways this could've been written so that we would not express doubt about Mary's motives.
Just one example would be, "You can't die Sherlock, John and Mary need you"!

We are told that Sherlock is dying and his last thought is that John is in danger from his wife.  Why did the creators tell us this?
 

Last edited by tonnaree (April 15, 2016 5:29 pm)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

April 15, 2016 5:31 pm  #3164


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

tonnaree wrote:

There's one thing I can not get past.
Sherlock was dying.  His heart had stopped and yet he dragged himself back to life. 
Why?
Because I voice in his subconscious said "That wife, John Watson is definitely in danger."

Why did the writers put it this way?  There are many other ways this could've been written so that we would not express doubt about Mary's motives.
Just one example would be, "You can't die Sherlock, John and Mary need you"!

We are told that Sherlock is dying and his last thought is that John is in danger from his wife.  Why did the creators tell us this?
 

Excellent point, tonnaree!


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

April 15, 2016 5:39 pm  #3165


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The writers did so, because they don't listen to their own commentaries 

*back to my grotto*


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 15, 2016 5:44 pm  #3166


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Bad bad Harriet...
Yes, tonnaree!! A thousand times yes! I don't get this: it's argued that Mary is forgiven because of the reconciliation scene. But this deepest inside into Sherlock's mind is at least equal insightful. Especially in regards to his opinion about Mary.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 15, 2016 6:03 pm  #3167


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Every time we can see into Sherlock's head, Mary is presented in a less than nice way to put it mildly: 

- That wife!
- The Mary Watson, who are you? deduction? 
- The whole of TAB

There is a marked contrast between the way Sherlock sees her in his own mind and the way he behaves towards her. It seems reasonable to conclude that his personal opinion about her differs from what he shows when other people are present. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 15, 2016 6:03 pm  #3168


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

(Shrugs) I dunno, we'll have to see...


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April 15, 2016 6:05 pm  #3169


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

If we just waited and saw, we would die of boredom between series. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 15, 2016 6:06 pm  #3170


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, kind of...
I honestly feel Sherlock really does like Mary...


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April 15, 2016 6:10 pm  #3171


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Hm, I agree with Susi, there are differences between his mind and his outwardly behavior.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 15, 2016 6:13 pm  #3172


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I know there are on other occasions, I'm not sure about in this case.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 15, 2016 6:33 pm  #3173


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

tonnaree wrote:

There's one thing I can not get past.
Sherlock was dying.  His heart had stopped and yet he dragged himself back to life. 
Why?
Because I voice in his subconscious said "That wife, John Watson is definitely in danger."

Why did the writers put it this way?  There are many other ways this could've been written so that we would not express doubt about Mary's motives.
Just one example would be, "You can't die Sherlock, John and Mary need you"!

We are told that Sherlock is dying and his last thought is that John is in danger from his wife.  Why did the creators tell us this?
 

I think that at that point he hasn't done his deduction about Mary - he hasn't had a chance to.  She has shot him and he has lost consciousness.  All he knows at that point is that she has apparently tried to kill him, and that John is about to walk into the room.  I don't think he does his deduction (the whole agent/assassin/surgery/fake identity thing) until much later.  For a start, he needs to know that the ambulance arrived early, information that he didn't have while unconscious.  It wouldn't make any sense for him to think of protecting Mary and John equally before the deduction - at that point while he's unconscious, it seems like she's a serious threat to John.

 

April 15, 2016 6:39 pm  #3174


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But presumably Sherlock doesn't think she's a threat now, or he wouldn't leave her with John.


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April 15, 2016 6:57 pm  #3175


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think, as with so many things, it's too early to tell for sure. So I'm very excited to see where S4 will take this.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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April 15, 2016 7:01 pm  #3176


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Or the whole forgiveness thing at Christmas was to lull Mary into letting her guard down.  No, we don't know anything for sure right now but this is a real possibility.

On a related note we still don't know what happened in the months leading up to Christmas or how this might have illuminated Sherlock's real feelings.
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

April 15, 2016 7:38 pm  #3177


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, it's an odd sort of gap. Perhaps it was needed to give Sherlock time to recover, but I'm not convinced.   It does take Mary closer to the end of her pregnancy, and emphasises that it took John months to be able to forgive.   But it does feel like there is some missing time.  We don't even know if John was living with Mary or Sherlock during that time.   And poor Mrs Hudson, never knowing where the next month's rent is coming from (did she have two tenants during that month, or one?  Did Sherlock pay in advance for the 6 months he was going to survive abroad, and did he warn her that she might need a new tenant?).

 

April 15, 2016 7:56 pm  #3178


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

Did Sherlock pay in advance for the 6 months he was going to survive abroad, and did he warn her that she might need a new tenant?).

Mrs. Hudson secretly finances Baker Street from series of autobiographical shorts stories about herself and her tenants. She got so rich recently that she doesn´t need the rent anymore, but she keeps Sherlock living there out of sentimental reasons. He enabled her to have these means to support herself in the first place....


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 15, 2016 8:32 pm  #3179


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Perhaps she has an income from the exotic dancing videos too?

 

April 15, 2016 9:00 pm  #3180


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Sure, she owns copyright to them and earns quite a lot from this. 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

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