tonnaree wrote:

If by some slim chance Mary was working for Mycroft, why was she still standing at the end of HLV.  There is no universe where I can imagine Mycroft not putting her in a deep dark hole for shooting his brother.

Plot device, tonnaree, nothing more, nothing less. The whole character of Mary is a plot device, as is every single up and down thing we've seen her do and say since we met her.
 

Nobody's gonna shoot you.
If they do, let's hope you get Mary, cos people survive after she shoots them!
I am quite certain that Steven and Mark know exactly where they are going with the character of Mary.
Whether people on this board like it or not, is another matter entirely.
I haven't seen anything Mary does as irrational.
Misguided yes, irrational, no.

Last edited by besleybean (January 10, 2016 6:17 pm)

No, well of course none of us really know the full path for Mary.
But always in my mind ring the team's words: she's done wrong in her past, trying to make amends.
But whatever we think is going to happen with her, I still feel that if she was any real and immediate danger- she would have been dealt with by now.
My personal view: they were going to bring her in anyway(Canon), so she was a plot device to work in CAM.

Well we'll see.
Certainly, Mary and Moriarty are the outstanding questions for me.

Well, in a universe where people apparently can will themselves back from death, I'm quite happy to believe that someone can survive a liver injury. 

Cheers.

Surviving a liver injury (is it ever specified?) isn't the issue for me - I'm quite happy to believe that in real life, Mary could have shot meaning only to incapacitate, and Sherlock could have flatlined.  It's just that in a story, I think it would have worked better if he hadn't been so close to death.    I'm sure Sherlock's deduction comes partly from the fact that he survived, but it's not such a great clue if he only survived by a tiny chance.   But as the rest of his deduction points to Mary wanting him alive, and we know that she could have made sure he was dead (then or later) if she'd really wanted to, then I can accept it.   It just feels a bit messy. 

But anyway ... IF Mycroft had hired Mary to go for Magnussen, he might feel partially responsible too. 

Liberty wrote:

I think it's pretty explicit that Mary is working for Mycroft in the scene at the Diogenes club ("I now rely on you to keep an eye on things").  

Then in the present day, Mycroft isn't at all surprised to see Mary accessing top level files at MI5.  It's not a definite confirmation, but if Mary had worked for Mycroft in real life it would certainly explain why Sherlock sees her doing the same in his mind palace.

But the Diogenes Club only takes place at Sherlock´s mind palace and it says nothing about the present-day-Mary´s actual role. In MP, "England needs Mary", while we know that in RL, at the end of HLV, Sherlock was the person "needed by England"...

And when Mycroft asks Mary what she thinks about MI5 security, it´s painfully obvious she doesn´t work for him. If she was part of MI5, she would be already knowledgeable about the security system, her boss wouldn´t need to ask her about it there and then, as if she saw it for the first time...

nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I think it's pretty explicit that Mary is working for Mycroft in the scene at the Diogenes club ("I now rely on you to keep an eye on things").  

Then in the present day, Mycroft isn't at all surprised to see Mary accessing top level files at MI5.  It's not a definite confirmation, but if Mary had worked for Mycroft in real life it would certainly explain why Sherlock sees her doing the same in his mind palace.

But the Diogenes Club only takes place at Sherlock´s mind palace and it says nothing about the present-day-Mary´s actual role. In MP, "England needs Mary", while we know that in RL, at the end of HLV, Sherlock was the person "needed by England"...

And when Mycroft asks Mary what she thinks about MI5 security, it´s painfully obvious she doesn´t work for him. If she was part of MI5, she would be already knowledgeable about the security system, her boss wouldn´t need to ask her about it there and then, as if she saw it for the first time...

Sorry, I should have quoted .. that was in answer to Ancientsgate's comment about Mary working for Mycroft (in the mind palace) was that she says she's going to help "England".  But I think the scene at the Diogenes club makes it very clear. 

Yes, it's Sherlock's mind palace, but he has everybody more or less carrying out the same roles as they do in "real life".  He's the consulting detective, John's his army doctor friend who helps him on cases, Mrs Hudson's the housekeeper/landlady, Molly's the pathologist, Lestrade works for the police, Mycroft works for the government.   If Mary's John's wife and a nurse who also works for Mycroft, I think it's a huge hint that Mary has worked for Mycroft in real life.  Why else would Sherlock add that detail? 

Then in the plane scene, the revelation is that Mycroft isn't at all surprised at Mary having access to top level security.  What that shows to me is that he's aware of who she is - he's seeing her as an intelligence agent.   That wouldn't be proof at all that she'd worked for him, of course.   But it's definitely new information for us.   But it's not such a leap from Mycroft being aware of Mary's role to him having employed her at some point (surely he does engage agents?  He mentions one in TEH, for instance).  That would explain why Sherlock gave her that role in his mind palace. 
 

Liberty wrote:

If Mary's John's wife and a nurse who also works for Mycroft, I think it's a huge hint that Mary has worked for Mycroft in real life.  Why else would Sherlock add that detail? 

There are many details in there that Sherlock´s mind added to the story but which are not true in RL.
For example, John doesn´t wear moustaches and I doubt he would be so vain in present-day-reality to grow one only to impress the public.
Molly is definitely not the macho murderer as presented here.
Mary´s role could be completely conjured up by him either.

Liberty wrote:

 Then in the plane scene, the revelation is that Mycroft isn't at all surprised at Mary having access to top level security.  What that shows to me is that he's aware of who she is - he's seeing her as an intelligence agent.   That wouldn't be proof at all that she'd worked for him, of course.  
 

Yes and that´s what I was pointing out. mycroft can be aware that Mary is an agent, but I doubt they work together. Their interaction doesn´t seem like they work together - it rather seems to me, like Mycroft is forced to tolerate her but is not too happy about it.