BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · January 4, 2016 7:24 pm

Mod's note - in support of tonnaree's notes please let me add:

1. It is highly inappropriate to compare the lively discussion of a fictional character with the unspeakable things posted by people who dislike Sophie Hunter, a real-life person. In this forum we should never mix up fictional characters and real-life persons.
2. We have a separate thread for people who watch Mary in a positive light. Therefore people who view the character in a negative or ambivalent light are welcome in this thread.
3. Strong sarcasm should not be part of our tone in here. Please try to remain polite even in controversial discussions.

Thank you.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 4, 2016 7:28 pm)

besleybean · January 4, 2016 7:29 pm

I don't think anybody was mixing up fictional and real life figures.
I haven't seen one instance of anybody saying people cannot post what they like about Mary.
I hope the last note applies to us all.
Though I should point out, rather hard to show sarcasm in type.

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2016 7:29 pm)

SusiGo · January 4, 2016 7:32 pm

Besley, you mentioned Sophie Hunter in connection with the Mary discussion.
The request for politeness applies to everybody.

And now I will watch TAB again.

besleybean · January 4, 2016 7:36 pm

The thought came into my head and I said the discussion reminded me of the situation.
I don't think I have ever been impolite, I am pleased to say.
I am pleased about your last comment: please tell us about the Mycroft/Sherlock drug scene.

nakahara · January 4, 2016 10:19 pm

Some parallels. Intentional? Unintentional?

SusiGo · January 4, 2016 10:22 pm

The universe is rarely so lazy.

Liberty · January 4, 2016 10:26 pm

There are definitely intentional parallels. And also what's being said in the plane drifts into Sherlock's mind palace. (And the other way round too, when Sherlock hears Watson's "morphine or cocaine?"). The first picture with Mary practically sets up the themes of the rest of the story.

tonnaree · January 4, 2016 10:39 pm

Could they perhaps want us to think of Mary and Moriarty as similar some how?

SusiGo · January 4, 2016 10:46 pm

Now this is a very daring thought, my dear.

Mothonthemantel · January 4, 2016 10:48 pm

There really really are so many parallels and links between Mary and Moriarty.
Could be deliberate red herrings .

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 10:48 pm)

besleybean · January 5, 2016 6:38 am

Well, as I was lying awake all night(as usual), I certainly got the parallel of Mary dressed as veiled widow, with those of the veiled brides...so we're on the same wavelength there.
I did put some other things in my 2 long, rambling TAB posts, which may be worth mentioning here.
1. I said that Mary stands with her head on one side, same as Moriarty.
2. I also said that the image of the bride on the glass, reminded me of Mary's image on the side of the building.

Liberty · January 5, 2016 8:42 am

Also Moriarty pointing a gun at Sherlock is a reminder of Mary pointing a gun at him. And the "widow" scene echoes Sherlock coming across Mary at Magnussen's - later in the scene, she raises her hand as if she's pointing a gun. Sherlock also addresses the Bride/Moriarty as Lady Carmichael, just as he addressed Mary as Lady Smallwood.

mrshouse · January 5, 2016 9:00 am

Wow, you found something in this tea scene I haven't thought of, Liberty.
I always found this to be a classic parallel to the one in TRF, initiated with the classic Sherlock-Moriarty dialogue of the " Whatever....has probably crossed your mind"
Interesting.

Liberty · January 5, 2016 9:28 am

Oh yes, I think it is a parallel to that, but I think there's an awful lot in the episode of Sherlock finding out about Moriarty through the women, one way or another.

besleybean · January 5, 2016 9:32 am

And we know he uses women: Molly, Irene.

SusiGo · January 5, 2016 5:45 pm

Some interesting thoughts:

http://twocandles.tumblr.com/post/136687117418/watsonshoneybee-kynthaworld

mrshouse · January 5, 2016 6:07 pm

"It shows that Mary’s attitude about her past is cavalier and cocky"
Thank you. I've been waffling for two years now about Mary to say exactly this.
Very interesting points, gives food for thought, Susi.

Liberty · January 5, 2016 7:34 pm

There are some great points there. There's a couple I don't quite agree with. Mary looking up the graveyard is in Sherlock's mind palace, not in real life. It's possible that it's overheard conversation, but I'm not sure - that line doesn't get followed up when he awakes. Mary is concerned about Sherlock (unless she's acting). She doesn't make fun of them, any more than they all make fun of each other (this is the way they interact with each other a lot of the time). Mycroft is not necessarily a risk in the way Magnussen is - Magnussen was sadistic and had no reason to feel kindly towards her, whereas Mycroft does (because of Sherlock - the fact that he committed murder to protect her shows how important that is to him). This is just as far as we know, of course - who knows what we haven't been told? (The information about Mycroft knowing about Mary was quite pointedly withheld from us in HLV, so I suspect there are going to be another revelation or two in S4. We just don't know what).

I do think it's a good point about the MI5 database - I was wondering why that story would be top security too! Unless, as we've discussed the whole thing is mind palace (the list links the plane sequences, so both would have to be part of it, wouldn't they? It's possible (especially with this being a one-off "standalone" - I can honestly just picture them saying "but we told you this wasn't part of the main storyline, and you didn't listen"! And "Redbeard" i Mycroft's notebook does make me wonder if the notebook is in Sherlock's mind palace), BUT it does seem a bit pointless to resolve those two important points - Moriarty and Mary/Mycroft - only to have to do it all over again at the start of S4. And I agree that it seems odd that the database can be accessed from a mobile phone. But that whole sequence might have been written like that for the sake of the joke - and it IS very funny, one of the times I laughed out loud watching.

Last edited by Liberty (January 5, 2016 8:00 pm)

besleybean · January 5, 2016 8:13 pm

I agree on the latter.
After the elopement line.
Mary's line about MI5 security is my favourite!

nakahara · January 6, 2016 1:22 am

One more thing that connects Mary with Moriarty:

Victorian part of Sherlock´s visions are very ACD-canon compliant. Except one thing: from the remarks John and Mycroft make at various times, the case of the Bride takes place after Canon "The Hound of Baskerville" and after Canon "The Final Problem".

Which means Mary should be dead now and John, selling his Kensington practice, should live with Holmes at Baker Street again.

And yet she appears, dressed in black, unannounced and demands her husband back...

Ghost and alive at the same time. Being there for the sole purpose of keeping Watson away from Baker Street....

And that´s where she is similar to Moriarty, IMHO.