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January 4, 2016 7:24 pm  #2721


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Mod's note - in support of tonnaree's notes please let me add: 

1. It is highly inappropriate to compare the lively discussion of a fictional character with the unspeakable things posted by people who dislike Sophie Hunter, a real-life person. In this forum we should never mix up fictional characters and real-life persons. 
2. We have a separate thread for people who watch Mary in a positive light. Therefore people who view the character in a negative or ambivalent light are welcome in this thread.
3. Strong sarcasm should not be part of our tone in here. Please try to remain polite even in controversial discussions. 

Thank you. 

 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 4, 2016 7:28 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 4, 2016 7:29 pm  #2722


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think anybody was mixing up fictional and real life figures.
I haven't seen one instance of anybody saying people cannot post what they like about Mary.
I hope the last note applies to us all.
Though I should point out, rather hard to show sarcasm in type.
 

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2016 7:29 pm)


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January 4, 2016 7:32 pm  #2723


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Besley, you mentioned Sophie Hunter in connection with the Mary discussion.
The request for politeness applies to everybody. 

And now I will watch TAB again. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 4, 2016 7:36 pm  #2724


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The thought came into my head and I said the discussion reminded me of the situation.
I don't think I have ever been impolite, I am pleased to say.
I am pleased about your last comment: please tell us about the Mycroft/Sherlock drug scene.


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January 4, 2016 10:19 pm  #2725


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Some parallels. Intentional? Unintentional?















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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 4, 2016 10:22 pm  #2726


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The universe is rarely so lazy. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 4, 2016 10:26 pm  #2727


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

There are definitely intentional parallels.   And also what's being said in the plane drifts into Sherlock's mind palace.  (And the other way round too, when Sherlock hears Watson's "morphine or cocaine?").  The first picture with Mary practically sets up the themes of the rest of the story.

 

January 4, 2016 10:39 pm  #2728


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Could they perhaps want us to think of Mary and Moriarty as similar some how?  


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 4, 2016 10:46 pm  #2729


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Now this is a very daring thought, my dear. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 4, 2016 10:48 pm  #2730


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

There really really are so many parallels and links between Mary and Moriarty.
Could be deliberate red herrings .

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 10:48 pm)


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 5, 2016 6:38 am  #2731


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, as I was lying awake all night(as usual), I certainly got the parallel of Mary dressed as veiled widow, with those of the veiled brides...so we're on the same wavelength there.
I did put some other things in my 2 long, rambling TAB posts, which may be worth mentioning here.
1. I said that Mary stands with her head on one side, same as Moriarty.
2. I also said that the image of the bride on the glass, reminded me of Mary's image on the side of the building.


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January 5, 2016 8:42 am  #2732


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Also Moriarty pointing a gun at Sherlock is a reminder of Mary pointing a gun at him.   And the "widow" scene echoes Sherlock coming across Mary at Magnussen's - later in the scene, she raises her hand as if she's pointing a gun.   Sherlock also addresses the Bride/Moriarty as Lady Carmichael, just as he addressed Mary as Lady Smallwood. 

 

January 5, 2016 9:00 am  #2733


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Wow, you found something in this tea scene I haven't thought of, Liberty.
I always found this to be a classic parallel to the one in TRF, initiated with the classic Sherlock-Moriarty dialogue of the " Whatever....has probably crossed your mind"
Interesting.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 5, 2016 9:28 am  #2734


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Oh yes, I think it is a parallel to that, but I think there's an awful lot in the episode of Sherlock finding out about Moriarty through the women, one way or another.

 

January 5, 2016 9:32 am  #2735


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

And we know he uses women: Molly, Irene.


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January 5, 2016 5:45 pm  #2736


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 5, 2016 6:07 pm  #2737


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

"It shows that Mary’s attitude about her past is cavalier and cocky"
Thank you. I've been waffling for two years now about Mary to say exactly this.
Very interesting points, gives food for thought, Susi.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 5, 2016 7:34 pm  #2738


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

There are some great points there.  There's a couple I don't quite agree with.  Mary looking up the graveyard is in Sherlock's mind palace, not in real life.  It's possible that it's overheard conversation, but I'm not sure - that line doesn't get followed up when he awakes.   Mary is concerned about Sherlock (unless she's acting).  She doesn't make fun of them, any more than they all make fun of each other (this is the way they interact with each other a lot of the time).   Mycroft is not necessarily a risk in the way Magnussen is - Magnussen was sadistic and had no reason to feel kindly towards her, whereas Mycroft does (because of Sherlock - the fact that he committed murder to protect her shows how important that is to him).   This is just as far as we know, of course - who knows what we haven't been told?  (The information about Mycroft knowing about Mary was quite pointedly withheld from us in HLV, so I suspect there are going to be another revelation or two in S4.  We just don't know what).  

I do think it's a good point about the MI5 database - I was wondering why that story would be top security too!  Unless, as we've discussed the whole thing is mind palace (the list links the plane sequences, so both would have to be part of it, wouldn't they?  It's possible (especially with this being a one-off "standalone" - I can honestly just picture them saying "but we told you this wasn't part of the main storyline, and you didn't listen"!  And "Redbeard" i Mycroft's notebook does make me wonder if the notebook is in Sherlock's mind palace), BUT it does seem a bit pointless to resolve those two important points - Moriarty and Mary/Mycroft - only to have to do it all over again at the start of S4.  And I agree that it seems odd that the database can be accessed from a mobile phone.   But that whole sequence might have been written like that for the sake of the joke - and it IS very funny, one of the times I laughed out loud watching.  

Last edited by Liberty (January 5, 2016 8:00 pm)

 

January 5, 2016 8:13 pm  #2739


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I agree on the latter.
After the elopement line.
Mary's line about MI5 security is my favourite!


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January 6, 2016 1:22 am  #2740


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

One more thing that connects Mary with Moriarty:

Victorian part of Sherlock´s visions are very ACD-canon compliant. Except one thing: from the remarks John and Mycroft make at various times, the case of the Bride takes place after Canon "The Hound of Baskerville" and after Canon "The Final Problem".

Which means Mary should be dead now and John, selling his Kensington practice, should live with Holmes at Baker Street again.

And yet she appears, dressed in black, unannounced and demands her husband back... 

Ghost and alive at the same time. Being there for the sole purpose of keeping Watson away from Baker Street....

And that´s where she is similar to Moriarty, IMHO.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

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