BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · June 24, 2015 6:07 pm

Thank you. Although the second half was perfectly fine.

Harriet · June 24, 2015 6:09 pm

Works for me, too - if done properly, it is almost a nod to canon days, when women died from infections.
Yes, this could go.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 24, 2015 6:44 pm

I've been thinking about this-- and I'm coming (reluctantly) to the conclusion that though we may think that killing the baby is too dark, too over the top for television, the producers of the show may not see that.
Because of shows like Law and Order SVU, and others-- this is not something we've never seen before. And Mofftiss have proved that they like pushing the envelope when it comes to "darkness' in the show: Sherlock killing Magnussen in cold blood is but one example. Why wouldn't they kill off the baby-- and Mary, too? They aren't women, they don't have our sensitivities, or sensibilities. And it's a golden opportunity to up the ante when it comes to angst in the show.

Quite frankly, I hope they don't take that route: do we really need another season on grieving, angry, broken John? (And, I'm sure he'll blame Sherlock, or they'll write it so it's All Sherlock's Fault.) Which means that Sherlock and John would be farther away from each other than ever.

Sigh.

I really wish they hadn't brought a baby into this.

Kittyhawk · June 24, 2015 6:58 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I've been thinking about this-- and I'm coming (reluctantly) to the conclusion that though we may think that killing the baby is too dark, too over the top for television, the producers of the show may not see that. ......

I think you are right - they held a blind old lady hostage and blew her up in the end. And haven't they said that the show is to get "darker"? So I think if they want to get rid of the baby, the "best" we can hope for is a car crash (or similar accident), crib death, it being stillborn... Or next season's big villain could kidnap it and then all sorts of things could happen and go wrong that I don't feel like getting into right now.

SusiGo · June 24, 2015 8:06 pm

Do you remember how we discussed if the Mary did call the ambulance in HLV and there was the argument that she could not because was wearing gloves? I just stumbled upon this:

http://pvtrocles.tumblr.com/post/122357926069

mrshouse · June 24, 2015 8:09 pm

Interesting find, Susi.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 24, 2015 8:19 pm

Yep-- good one, SusiGo. :-)

Harriet · June 24, 2015 8:20 pm

I'm sure someone can explain this - with a lot of thought and brainwrecking

RavenMorganLeigh · June 24, 2015 8:20 pm

tonnaree wrote:
NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
Sherlock : " Moriarty is back, the game is on"
John " I don't care, Mary just died from a fierce devastating flu and used her last breath to confess the baby is not mine"
Sherlock : " Ok, then, let's go to bed, I'm gonna comfort you and we'll chase Moriarty tomorow"

You're right, this is gooooooood TV!

Works for me. Although I'd rather have a dramatic moment with Mary as the villian and John has to shoot her because she's threating to shoot Sherlock again.

Me, too!

Harriet · June 24, 2015 8:22 pm

Maybe we could post it in the plot bunny thread?

RavenMorganLeigh · June 24, 2015 8:40 pm

Harriet wrote:
Maybe we could post it in the plot bunny thread?

There's PLOT BUNNY THREAD!?!?

Squeeeeeee!

Harriet · June 24, 2015 8:41 pm

http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=2618

To make you happy

RavenMorganLeigh · June 25, 2015 2:27 am

Harriet wrote:
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=2618

To make you happy

Thank you, Harriet!

Kittyhawk · June 26, 2015 10:19 am

SusiGo wrote:
... And I really wonder why Mary needed a shoulder to cry on three times during her time with John.

Actually, nobody says that Mary needed a shoulder to cry on - Sherlock says that David offered to be a shoulder to cry on on three separate occasions (which may or may not be true - David is too intimidated to repond. Or he has nothing to say...) Sounds to me like an ex who doesn't want to believe it's over.

Which wouldn't be my first choice of wedding guest, but I guess they had to fill the reception hall somehow...

Kittyhawk · June 26, 2015 10:40 am

SusiGo wrote:
Do you remember how we discussed if the Mary did call the ambulance in HLV and there was the argument that she could not because was wearing gloves? I just stumbled upon this:

http://pvtrocles.tumblr.com/post/122357926069

Sorry, I don't get it - what does this prove or disprove? Did anybody doubt that Mary is capable of taking her gloves off when needed?

A bit of experimentation has shown that it depends on the type of glove whether one can use a smartphone wearing them: I don't manage with leather, but with fabric and knit it sort of works (well enough for an emergency call, for which it isn't even necessary to unlock the phone, at least not mine) and with latex ones (standard burglar/medical personnel equipment) it's absolutely no problem.

I think it's more interesing to wonder which phone Mary would have used: One wouldn't want to wear a tracking device while engaged in a criminal activity, so no intelligent criminal would come with their personal phone and most certainly wouldn't use it while on the crime scene. So either Mary would have another phone (does anybody know whether the GPS tracking is related to the sim card or the phone hardware? In the first case a second sim card might be enough), or she'd use one of Magnussen's. Or even Sherlock's.

But in all cases she'd put herself proveably on the crime scene (I'm assuming all emergency calls are recorded - anybody knows whether that is true?). Of course, when one leaves two witnesses alive a voiceprint is probably a minor problem...

tonnaree · June 26, 2015 12:10 pm

It would've been easy for her to use CAM's phone after she knocked him out.

Whisky · June 27, 2015 9:58 am

Why did CAM keep silent? With all he had on Mary then,old stuff and her threating him in the office, he could have effectively gotten her out of the way. Wasn't he ever afraid Mary would come back and kill him on second try? What does CAM do while Watsons have their "domestic"? Just waiting for the game to play itself out? With Marys gun to his head, he actually does look afraid. He must have known she thinks "people like him should be killed". So he gets away, and if she was about to kill him, he is damn lucky to be alive. And he does nothing? When Sherlock corneres CAM in Appledore, nothing about Mary has leaked apparently,because otherwise Sherlock couldn't say "she's safe now".

I think Mary uses CAMs phone,it's in the direction she's reaching, but I would have to rewatch to be sure.

Last edited by Whisky (June 27, 2015 10:04 am)

Kittyhawk · June 27, 2015 11:58 am

I don't think Mary really wanted to kill CAM - at least not until she had gotten the "damning documents" from him. At that point in time everybody still believed CAD had these vast archives of evidence which could have been accessed by somebody else (his successor, friend, lawyer) in the case of his death. "Kill me and the information goes public" should be pretty effective life insurance (which is why I can't understand CAM giving the game away in Appledore - for me he was a dead man walking from the moment he said the information was only in his head. Actually, I was rather disappointed that John didn't kill him right there and then, in the little white room).

Leaves the question why Mary broke into CAM's office at all when the archives are supposed to be in Appledore (and to me Appledore looks a lot easier to break into than a city skyscraper) - was there any reason to believe that CAM would keep whatever he had on her in his city office safe?

As for why CAM kept silent - I don't think he wanted to get Mary out of the way. He wanted to put pressure on Mycroft, by putting pressure on Sherlock via pressure on John via pressure on Mary. If he denounces Mary to the police, her previous employers or anybody else who has a grudge against her the chain of "pressure points" loses its starting point. Meaning that most probably CAM cleaned up any evidence Mary might have left in the office... (It just occurs to me that it might have been a good idea for Mary to force CAM to make the emergency call before knocking him out - that solves both gloves and voiceprint problems).

tonnaree · June 27, 2015 2:44 pm

Whisky wrote:
Why did CAM keep silent? With all he had on Mary then,old stuff and her threating him in the office, he could have effectively gotten her out of the way. Wasn't he ever afraid Mary would come back and kill him on second try? What does CAM do while Watsons have their "domestic"? Just waiting for the game to play itself out? With Marys gun to his head, he actually does look afraid. He must have known she thinks "people like him should be killed". So he gets away, and if she was about to kill him, he is damn lucky to be alive. And he does nothing? When Sherlock corneres CAM in Appledore, nothing about Mary has leaked apparently,because otherwise Sherlock couldn't say "she's safe now".

I think Mary uses CAMs phone,it's in the direction she's reaching, but I would have to rewatch to be sure.

Something to remember when rewatching is that in this scene we are not watching what "actually" happened. We are watching what Sherlock thinks happened.

Whisky · June 27, 2015 4:33 pm

But it makes no sense to show things in a totally wrong way because we as viewers would never come to a right conclusion. Sherlock says Mary called, and I would believe him. The alternative would be that CAM called instead of Mary, and I don't think that makes sense if I see the power balance in the office - Mary has the gun and is in charge, why would she let CAM make the phonecall. John is so quickly after in the office, Mary can't have more than few moments and if she was to make sure someone calls an ambulance she would have to do it herself. Also CAM looks pretty confused and knocked out, not sure he would grasp the situation quick enough. All he says is "he got shot", and while he says it he looks like he is still processing the information. So I would put my bets on Mary as the one phoning.

I think CAM shows the room to John and Sherlock because he thinks he has already won. It doesn't occure to him that Sherlock would murder him. He believes in a higher power - himself. Very similar to Sherlock in that regard, if we are to believe Irene's opinion on Sherlock.

Last edited by Whisky (June 27, 2015 4:38 pm)