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January 3, 2017 2:36 pm  #81


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Yes liberty Sherlock wanted to do his showing off for John. It is unclear if Sherlock expected just John or both of them together because of the different texts. He seemed surprised to see Mary alone.
I think I lean towards him thinking John was bringing more back up for sure , Mary would have had little chance of revenge with the crowd there.
The improbability of a secretary who was never a field agent killing someone with one shot though , likely quite rightly was written off!

As I pointed out in another thread, Norbury seemed very devastated at the end of Sherlock´s seemingly arrogant deduction and showed signs of surrendering without any protest. But when Sherlock raised his hand, demanding a gun from her, she shot at him quite gleefully - despite the fact that the shot could not make her situation any better. She acted quite irrationally, with the sole purpose of harming somebody.

Sherlock, who probably intended to crush her into submission with his well-aimed words, just didn´t calculate this irrational behaviour into his plan - which is quite understandable in such a rational man.

I agree with your point about the moralistic problem here, Moth.

On the other hand, I see another personal dilemma here. Mary, the former assassin/agent, faces here the person directly responsible for the screw-up at the embassy that cost the lives of massacred hostages and AGRA members, including AJ (which was something like her former family). She could not prevent any death that preceded this. But she could at least prevent this last attempt at somebody´s life and thus prevent the betrayer to have her triumph over her again. And so her sacrifice was in some way a victory over her enemy.... even if it cost her own life.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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January 3, 2017 3:01 pm  #82


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

And Mary also tries several times to stop Sherlock in his deductive rant. She's able to see that provoking someone who points at you with a gun is not a particularly good idea.


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January 3, 2017 4:03 pm  #83


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Well, I wonder what Vivian Norbury would do if Sherlock didn´t make that deduction and decided to be silent instead.

I think he called Mary to the aquarium before Mycroft and Lestrade with a specific goal to show her the person who betrayed AGRA and to give Mary the sense of resolution with that.

So, if he didn´t make the deduction, would Mary allow Vivian to just go like that? I doubt it. 

Would Vivian just let herself to be arrested calmly by Mycroft and Lestrade and would she go with them, if Sherlock didn´t make the deduction? I doubt that too. I think she was determined to make as much harm as possible if they did not let her go - and that´s why she carried a gun in her handbag.

So I believe Vivian would shoot at somebody anyway.

And remember, she brandished a gun, after Mary - not Sherlock - was trying to jump at her in anger.

With that deduction, Sherlock just brought her attention on himself. He could never predict that Mary would take a bullet for him. 

In conclusion - Mary´s death is absolutely not his fault, regardless of the deduction.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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January 3, 2017 4:09 pm  #84


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Once again, I can but agree...hopefully John will realise this soon, too.


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January 3, 2017 4:40 pm  #85


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Also, look at Sherlock´s first reaction after AJ started to shoot at them in Morocco:

http://geeks-and-tjlc.tumblr.com/post/155339532686/shrlk-jon-lox-swearingjohn-amazing-how

How can John blame that man for anything is beyond me... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 3, 2017 4:43 pm  #86


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Even speaking as a militant non-Johnlocker, that is very touching.

Ok that was said with my heart.
With my head: yes, Sherlock is being selfless, but who does he protect- John or Mary?
John is closer, yes he was a soldier, but a medic.
Mary is further away and a trained SAS type.

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2017 4:45 pm)


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January 3, 2017 4:43 pm  #87


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

aww, that is very touching indeed, but grief can do a lot to a human being...
no worries, be will come around eventually

Last edited by Lola Red (January 3, 2017 4:45 pm)


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January 3, 2017 4:45 pm  #88


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

nakahara wrote:

Also, look at Sherlock´s first reaction after AJ started to shoot at them in Morocco:

http://geeks-and-tjlc.tumblr.com/post/155339532686/shrlk-jon-lox-swearingjohn-amazing-how

How can John blame that man for anything is beyond me... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

To quote Mrs Hudson...oh Sherlock http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png


                                                                                                                      

All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.

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January 3, 2017 4:47 pm  #89


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

besleybean wrote:

Even speaking as a militant non-Johnlocker, that is very touching.

Ok that was said with my heart.
With my head: yes, Sherlock is being selfless, but who does he protect- John or Mary?
John is closer, yes he was a soldier, but a medic.
Mary is further away and a trained SAS type.

He definitely covers John with an overturned table, so that the shooter does not see John´s exact position in the room:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/1ade5d371f69fc3a5b867bcd04a89b61/tumblr_inline_oj71nqh99u1skat4r_500.png

 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 3, 2017 4:53 pm  #90


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

I'm not arguing with that and I will further add it is an act of love...but I do think he cares about Mary, too!

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2017 4:54 pm)


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January 3, 2017 10:17 pm  #91


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

nakahara wrote:

I think he called Mary to the aquarium before Mycroft and Lestrade with a specific goal to show her the person who betrayed AGRA and to give Mary the sense of resolution with that.

I do not think Sherlock called Lestrade and Mycroft to the aquarium. It was John on his way to aquarium. So what wanted Sherlock to do just with John and maybe Mary.

Mary's death might not be Sherlock's fault but the important thing is that he believes it is because he was overconfident.. So he accepts that John hhas right to be angry at him.

E2 is based on Dying detective, we will see what is really going to happen but dying Sherlock could move John a bit. 

 

January 3, 2017 10:20 pm  #92


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Gosh I would hope so!


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January 3, 2017 10:25 pm  #93


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Preceja wrote:

.............Mary's death might not be Sherlock's fault but the important thing is that he believes it is because he was overconfident.. So he accepts that John hhas right to be angry at him. E2 is based on Dying detective, we will see what is really going to happen but dying Sherlock could move John a bit. 

Argh, so much angst!
 

 

January 4, 2017 12:46 am  #94


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

nakahara wrote:

Also, look at Sherlock´s first reaction after AJ started to shoot at them in Morocco:

http://geeks-and-tjlc.tumblr.com/post/155339532686/shrlk-jon-lox-swearingjohn-amazing-how

How can John blame that man for anything is beyond me... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

Oh! Thanks for this!
To me it's quite clear that Sherlock tried to protect John. I don't know if he had any time to think that Mary was a professional and she'd be able to get away unscathed (I doubt it). Sherlock provided John a protection because it's "amazing how fire exposes our priorities".

Last edited by NicoleCollard (January 4, 2017 12:47 am)


Sherlock Holmes: I've disappointed you.
John Watson: That's good... that's a good deduction, yeah.
Sherlock Holmes: Don't make people into heroes, John. Heroes don't exist, and if they did, I wouldn't be one of them.
 

January 4, 2017 8:43 am  #95


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Of course.
But I don't think that in any way did Sherlock want Mary to die.


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January 4, 2017 8:47 am  #96


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

besleybean wrote:

Of course.
But I don't think that in any way did Sherlock want Mary to die.

It shows that John is more important for him than Mary, I'd say.


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January 4, 2017 9:05 am  #97


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

Well, it's a bit like choosing your favourite child, isn't it?
In that situation and it was 2 of your children...which one would you have turned the table over for?
But anyway, point taken.
I will say it AGAIN.  Nobody has ever denied that Sherlock loves John.
But I also know he loved Mary, too.


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January 4, 2017 9:30 am  #98


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

I'm not sure I really understand, this.  John is the one who is targeted and in immediate danger, with the laser sight on his head.  John and Mary were right next to each other - either could have hidden behind the table (the screenshot doesn't show how quickly this happened, with everybody moving at once).   I don't really see Sherlock directing John to do one thing and Mary to do another.   It doesn't seem like he's choosing between them ... if he had to choose, he obviously has the deeper and longer (stop it!) connection to John.   But I think he really seriously wants to protect both of them. 

 

January 4, 2017 11:15 am  #99


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

My point entirely.


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January 6, 2017 11:16 am  #100


Re: John's anger towards Sherlock

This fits in several threads here now, but I couldn't help giggling at this:

https://asherlockstudy.tumblr.com/post/155470486037/john-accused-sherlock-of-breaking-a-vow-but-hey


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Team Hudders!
 
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