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| The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 25, 2014 8:04 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 445
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tobeornot221b wrote:Maybe because Moriarty said "...unless my people see you JUMP" - not "LAND"?
It sounds like a joke though. Doesn't the show owe us some explanation of why his men would be under such a ridiculous order?
| The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 25, 2014 7:54 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 445
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Willow wrote:haseoke39 wrote:Willow wrote:
There are lots of high buildings around but very few of them have a line of sight to the roof of Barts close to the gateway which is where the action took place, and nowadays the City is a pretty paranoid place which means access for snipers is not easy; I don't have a problem with that aspect. Having multiple plans, none of which included Moriarty committing suicide, is not unreasonable given that everything we have seen of Moriarty's personality up to that point; why should someone as egocentric as Moriarty kill himself? It seems reasonable to assume that Sherlock had intended to incapacitate Moriarty who would then be detained by Mycroft, while Sherlock set about dismantling his network, a process infinitely easier if they they believed Sherlock was dead.
And fooling John was essential; he has many sterling qualities but I really cannot envisage him keeping his mouth shut during many months of constant needling by the media. He would have blurted out something or another; admittedly he would have been really sorry about it when he stopped to think but John is not notable for stopping to think in the first place...
So, you're arguing that the trick was all to fool John, am I reading you right?
If the object here was just to keep John quiet, isn't there an easier way? Like, anything?I'm sorry; that was not what I was arguing so I'll have another go.
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There was no way for Sherlock to be sure that all of the snipers had been covered and removed; all of his plans had centred on discovering the code which he thought Moriarty possessed which had enabled him to do seemingly impossible things.
But then he discovered that there was no code, that there was a boring and mundane method of achieving the apparently impossible. Moriarty had fooled him because Sherlock is wired to think of the complex rather than the simple. At that point Moriarty threatens him with the snipers set up to kill John, Lestrade and
| Reichenbach Theories » Go on then...what are your theories? » January 25, 2014 5:54 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 991
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dartmoordoggers wrote:Wholocked wrote:Mary Me wrote:
But why? I'm perfectly fine with the soluation.
My issue with the third solution (and it jumped out at me as I was watching it the first time, it was such a huge issue) is that it implies the entire 'faking my death' was to fool John into believing he was dead. That's not why he faked his death. He did it because Moriarty's men needed to believe he was dead in order to stop the three snipers. He stayed 'dead' so that he could unravel the web but he wouldn't have had to 'die' in the way that he did if he just wanted to disappear to take out the web.
The idea that the entire 'production' was purely to fool John is bollocks. Also, if Mycroft's men had eliminated the sniper thread, it wouldn't have been necessary for Sherlock to go through with the faked death after Moriarty died at all.
This theory works perfectly well as a 'how I faked my death' if you don't consider the reasons WHY he was faking his death. And that's where the ginormous holes are for me.
But this assumes the Watson sniper is the guy who is going to send the Moriarty recall code to the other two snipers.
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This particular killing ground would have been one of many selected by Sherlock/Mycroft during the early stages of the plan. Probably when Moriarty was still being held by Mycroft and Mycroft discovered that Moriartys weakness was Sherlock. I imagine Mycroft (who is after all the British Government and British Secret Service) would have had the site extensively surveyed for vantage points, blind spots, and angles of sight. I would also imagine that Mycroft would have been informed by Sherlock that the roof top location was a go before he invited Moriarty. Thereby giving Mycroft plenty of time to secure the location before any of Moriartys henchmen arrived. It would not take much for Mycrofts men to secure any advantageous vantage points leaving the guy with the recall code an obstructed view. Once the rec
| The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 25, 2014 3:47 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 445
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Willow wrote:haseoke39 wrote:besleybean wrote:
Nobody else waa there to see it!
The street was blocked to all but the players!If Moriarty's men couldn't have seen him jump one way or the other (doubtful, there's dozens of high buildings nearby that would need to be completely secured, and we know John's sniper was in one), why bother doing the trick?
And for another one, Sherlock mentions that he didn't anticipate Moriarty killing himself. In his plan, then, Moriarty would've been standing right on the building watching Sherlock perform the trick. How would that have helped anything?
It's an elegant trick if the only object is to fool John. But there's no reason why he should do that, and it's a terrible trick if there's any other motive.There are lots of high buildings around but very few of them have a line of sight to the roof of Barts close to the gateway which is where the action took place, and nowadays the City is a pretty paranoid place which means access for snipers is not easy; I don't have a problem with that aspect. Having multiple plans, none of which included Moriarty committing suicide, is not unreasonable given that everything we have seen of Moriarty's personality up to that point; why should someone as egocentric as Moriarty kill himself? It seems reasonable to assume that Sherlock had intended to incapacitate Moriarty who would then be detained by Mycroft, while Sherlock set about dismantling his network, a process infinitely easier if they they believed Sherlock was dead.
And fooling John was essential; he has many sterling qualities but I really cannot envisage him keeping his mouth shut during many months of constant needling by the media. He would have blurted out something or another; admittedly he would have been really sorry about it when he stopped to think but John is not notable for stopping to think in the first place...
So, you're arguing that the trick was all to fool John, am I reading you right?
…
If
| The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 25, 2014 2:33 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 445
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besleybean wrote:
Nobody else waa there to see it!
The street was blocked to all but the players!If Moriarty's men couldn't have seen him jump one way or the other (doubtful, there's dozens of high buildings nearby that would need to be completely secured, and we know John's sniper was in one), why bother doing the trick?
And for another one, Sherlock mentions that he didn't anticipate Moriarty killing himself. In his plan, then, Moriarty would've been standing right on the building watching Sherlock perform the trick. How would that have helped anything?
It's an elegant trick if the only object is to fool John. But there's no reason why he should do that, and it's a terrible trick if there's any other motive.
| The Empty Hearse » Flaws In Theory #3 » January 25, 2014 2:26 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 40
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The corpse wasn't just to fool John for half a second. It was to be used in all future deceptions (death records, etc.) Molly had to manipulate some records to get the dead guy out of the way, but surely she couldn't have faked records enough to convince the nation that Sherlock was dead without a body that looked like his.
| The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 25, 2014 2:16 pm |
- haseoke39
- Replies: 445
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Just joined to discuss, so forgive me if I'm a bit behind the times on all the theories out there.
- In the Reichenbach scene, we see a large rectangle on the pavement demarcated with tape. That would indicate that, indeed, this is where they had been trained to place the balloon.
- We also see John standing in shock directly where the body had fallen (or within feet of it), then we see him in that spot through the sniper's scope as he lifts it off of John. That would indicate the sniper had a clear view of where Sherlock had fallen. Of course, Mycroft called off that sniper.
But still, whoever Sherlock jumped to influence would have also seen the trick. Only John wouldn't have. So why do the trick at all? It was an elegant trick if the only point was to fool John. But that defies the logic of the episode.
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