BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The theory he told Anderson

Mrs.Wenceslas · January 23, 2014 11:08 am

yes, I believe their collaboration looks like that most of the time.

gently69 · January 23, 2014 11:10 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Mrs.Wenceslas wrote:
they are all fooling us, maybe /and we like it, don´t we/
I guess so.

I hate Moffiss! (not really )

Merry · January 23, 2014 9:50 pm

OMG that picture is hilarious and perfect. Evil geniuses

haseoke39 · January 25, 2014 2:16 pm

Just joined to discuss, so forgive me if I'm a bit behind the times on all the theories out there.

- In the Reichenbach scene, we see a large rectangle on the pavement demarcated with tape. That would indicate that, indeed, this is where they had been trained to place the balloon.

- We also see John standing in shock directly where the body had fallen (or within feet of it), then we see him in that spot through the sniper's scope as he lifts it off of John. That would indicate the sniper had a clear view of where Sherlock had fallen. Of course, Mycroft called off that sniper.

But still, whoever Sherlock jumped to influence would have also seen the trick. Only John wouldn't have. So why do the trick at all? It was an elegant trick if the only point was to fool John. But that defies the logic of the episode.

besleybean · January 25, 2014 2:24 pm

Nobody else waa there to see it!
The street was blocked to all but the players!

haseoke39 · January 25, 2014 2:33 pm

besleybean wrote:
Nobody else waa there to see it!
The street was blocked to all but the players!

If Moriarty's men couldn't have seen him jump one way or the other (doubtful, there's dozens of high buildings nearby that would need to be completely secured, and we know John's sniper was in one), why bother doing the trick?

And for another one, Sherlock mentions that he didn't anticipate Moriarty killing himself. In his plan, then, Moriarty would've been standing right on the building watching Sherlock perform the trick. How would that have helped anything?

It's an elegant trick if the only object is to fool John. But there's no reason why he should do that, and it's a terrible trick if there's any other motive.

Last edited by haseoke39 (January 25, 2014 2:34 pm)

besleybean · January 25, 2014 2:43 pm

Only John's sniper was at Bart's and yes I know we then get into: but if they were going to see him off anyway.
I can only say I have made my peace with The Empty hearse.
I was never interestetd in the resolution.
I was firmly in the camp of: it didn't matter how he did it,.
I honestly do think the writers decided they couldn't please everybody, so decided to play with the huge uproar about the mystery survival.

Willow · January 25, 2014 3:43 pm

haseoke39 wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Nobody else waa there to see it!
The street was blocked to all but the players!
If Moriarty's men couldn't have seen him jump one way or the other (doubtful, there's dozens of high buildings nearby that would need to be completely secured, and we know John's sniper was in one), why bother doing the trick?

And for another one, Sherlock mentions that he didn't anticipate Moriarty killing himself. In his plan, then, Moriarty would've been standing right on the building watching Sherlock perform the trick. How would that have helped anything?

It's an elegant trick if the only object is to fool John. But there's no reason why he should do that, and it's a terrible trick if there's any other motive.

There are lots of high buildings around but very few of them have a line of sight to the roof of Barts close to the gateway which is where the action took place, and nowadays the City is a pretty paranoid place which means access for snipers is not easy; I don't have a problem with that aspect. Having multiple plans, none of which included Moriarty committing suicide, is not unreasonable given that everything we have seen of Moriarty's personality up to that point; why should someone as egocentric as Moriarty kill himself? It seems reasonable to assume that Sherlock had intended to incapacitate Moriarty who would then be detained by Mycroft, while Sherlock set about dismantling his network, a process infinitely easier if they they believed Sherlock was dead.

And fooling John was essential; he has many sterling qualities but I really cannot envisage him keeping his mouth shut during many months of constant needling by the media. He would have blurted out something or another; admittedly he would have been really sorry about it when he stopped to think but John is not notable for stopping to think in the first place...

haseoke39 · January 25, 2014 3:47 pm

Willow wrote:
haseoke39 wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Nobody else waa there to see it!
The street was blocked to all but the players!
If Moriarty's men couldn't have seen him jump one way or the other (doubtful, there's dozens of high buildings nearby that would need to be completely secured, and we know John's sniper was in one), why bother doing the trick?

And for another one, Sherlock mentions that he didn't anticipate Moriarty killing himself. In his plan, then, Moriarty would've been standing right on the building watching Sherlock perform the trick. How would that have helped anything?

It's an elegant trick if the only object is to fool John. But there's no reason why he should do that, and it's a terrible trick if there's any other motive.
There are lots of high buildings around but very few of them have a line of sight to the roof of Barts close to the gateway which is where the action took place, and nowadays the City is a pretty paranoid place which means access for snipers is not easy; I don't have a problem with that aspect. Having multiple plans, none of which included Moriarty committing suicide, is not unreasonable given that everything we have seen of Moriarty's personality up to that point; why should someone as egocentric as Moriarty kill himself? It seems reasonable to assume that Sherlock had intended to incapacitate Moriarty who would then be detained by Mycroft, while Sherlock set about dismantling his network, a process infinitely easier if they they believed Sherlock was dead.

And fooling John was essential; he has many sterling qualities but I really cannot envisage him keeping his mouth shut during many months of constant needling by the media. He would have blurted out something or another; admittedly he would have been really sorry about it when he stopped to think but John is not notable for stopping to think in the first place...

So, you're arguing that the trick was all to fool John, am I reading you right?

If the object here was just to keep John quiet, isn't there an easier way? Like, anything?

Willow · January 25, 2014 6:29 pm

haseoke39 wrote:
Willow wrote:
haseoke39 wrote:
If Moriarty's men couldn't have seen him jump one way or the other (doubtful, there's dozens of high buildings nearby that would need to be completely secured, and we know John's sniper was in one), why bother doing the trick?

And for another one, Sherlock mentions that he didn't anticipate Moriarty killing himself. In his plan, then, Moriarty would've been standing right on the building watching Sherlock perform the trick. How would that have helped anything?

It's an elegant trick if the only object is to fool John. But there's no reason why he should do that, and it's a terrible trick if there's any other motive.
There are lots of high buildings around but very few of them have a line of sight to the roof of Barts close to the gateway which is where the action took place, and nowadays the City is a pretty paranoid place which means access for snipers is not easy; I don't have a problem with that aspect. Having multiple plans, none of which included Moriarty committing suicide, is not unreasonable given that everything we have seen of Moriarty's personality up to that point; why should someone as egocentric as Moriarty kill himself? It seems reasonable to assume that Sherlock had intended to incapacitate Moriarty who would then be detained by Mycroft, while Sherlock set about dismantling his network, a process infinitely easier if they they believed Sherlock was dead.

And fooling John was essential; he has many sterling qualities but I really cannot envisage him keeping his mouth shut during many months of constant needling by the media. He would have blurted out something or another; admittedly he would have been really sorry about it when he stopped to think but John is not notable for stopping to think in the first place...

So, you're arguing that the trick was all to fool John, am I reading you right?

If the object here was just to keep John quiet, isn't there an easier way? Like, anything?

I'm sorry; that was not what I was arguing so I'll have another go.

There was no way for Sherlock to be sure that all of the snipers had been covered and removed; all of his plans had centred on discovering the code which he thought Moriarty possessed which had enabled him to do seemingly impossible things.

But then he discovered that there was no code, that there was a boring and mundane method of achieving the apparently impossible. Moriarty had fooled him because Sherlock is wired to think of the complex rather than the simple. At that point Moriarty threatens him with the snipers set up to kill John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson, and tells him that the only way to prevent it is for Sherlock to jump from the roof; it is only when Sherlock realises that Moriarty has the means to call off his assassins that Moriarty commits suicide, Sherlock having convinced him that he is a great deal more ruthless than Mycroft when it comes to extracting information.

The question then is, what does Sherlock do? Moriarty may have been lying about the existence of the snipers but Moriarty has just committed suicide to prevent Sherlock from extracting the abort message, which suggests Moriarty was being truthful. So he does the thing which Moriarty told him was the visual abort message; he jumps off the roof.

And having survived jumping off the roof he has to stay 'dead' because otherwise he would almost certainly have been facing a murder charge since Moriarty is dead; it's difficult to takedown a world wide criminal network when you are in the dock at the Old Bailey. John is not safe with that kind of information, Lestrade would have arrested him and Mrs Hudson has a chequered enough history to make it a good idea not to associate her with someone suspected of murder...

haseoke39 · January 25, 2014 7:54 pm

Willow wrote:
haseoke39 wrote:
Willow wrote:

There are lots of high buildings around but very few of them have a line of sight to the roof of Barts close to the gateway which is where the action took place, and nowadays the City is a pretty paranoid place which means access for snipers is not easy; I don't have a problem with that aspect. Having multiple plans, none of which included Moriarty committing suicide, is not unreasonable given that everything we have seen of Moriarty's personality up to that point; why should someone as egocentric as Moriarty kill himself? It seems reasonable to assume that Sherlock had intended to incapacitate Moriarty who would then be detained by Mycroft, while Sherlock set about dismantling his network, a process infinitely easier if they they believed Sherlock was dead.

And fooling John was essential; he has many sterling qualities but I really cannot envisage him keeping his mouth shut during many months of constant needling by the media. He would have blurted out something or another; admittedly he would have been really sorry about it when he stopped to think but John is not notable for stopping to think in the first place...

So, you're arguing that the trick was all to fool John, am I reading you right?

If the object here was just to keep John quiet, isn't there an easier way? Like, anything?
I'm sorry; that was not what I was arguing so I'll have another go.

There was no way for Sherlock to be sure that all of the snipers had been covered and removed; all of his plans had centred on discovering the code which he thought Moriarty possessed which had enabled him to do seemingly impossible things.

But then he discovered that there was no code, that there was a boring and mundane method of achieving the apparently impossible. Moriarty had fooled him because Sherlock is wired to think of the complex rather than the simple. At that point Moriarty threatens him with the snipers set up to kill John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson, and tells him that the only way to prevent it is for Sherlock to jump from the roof; it is only when Sherlock realises that Moriarty has the means to call off his assassins that Moriarty commits suicide, Sherlock having convinced him that he is a great deal more ruthless than Mycroft when it comes to extracting information.

The question then is, what does Sherlock do? Moriarty may have been lying about the existence of the snipers but Moriarty has just committed suicide to prevent Sherlock from extracting the abort message, which suggests Moriarty was being truthful. So he does the thing which Moriarty told him was the visual abort message; he jumps off the roof.

And having survived jumping off the roof he has to stay 'dead' because otherwise he would almost certainly have been facing a murder charge since Moriarty is dead; it's difficult to takedown a world wide criminal network when you are in the dock at the Old Bailey. John is not safe with that kind of information, Lestrade would have arrested him and Mrs Hudson has a chequered enough history to make it a good idea not to associate her with someone suspected of murder...

why would sherlock suppose that jumping off the roof will succeed as a visual abort message that Moriarty's men will respect even if they see him land on a pillow?

tobeornot221b · January 25, 2014 7:59 pm

haseoke39 wrote:
why would sherlock suppose that jumping off the roof will succeed as a visual abort message that Moriarty's men will respect even if they see him land on a pillow?

Maybe because Moriarty said "...unless my people see you JUMP" - not "LAND"?

haseoke39 · January 25, 2014 8:04 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
Maybe because Moriarty said "...unless my people see you JUMP" - not "LAND"?

It sounds like a joke though. Doesn't the show owe us some explanation of why his men would be under such a ridiculous order?

SherlocklivesinOH · January 25, 2014 8:43 pm

I thought I said this somewhere but now I can't remember where:

I'm not really sure Moffit, Gattis, etc, even know how Sherlock did it! On most shows, that would be called a cop-out. But here it kind of feels like: Sherlock Holmes outsmarted even them!

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (January 25, 2014 8:47 pm)

Willow · January 25, 2014 9:51 pm

haseoke39 wrote:
Willow wrote:
haseoke39 wrote:
So, you're arguing that the trick was all to fool John, am I reading you right?

If the object here was just to keep John quiet, isn't there an easier way? Like, anything?
I'm sorry; that was not what I was arguing so I'll have another go.

There was no way for Sherlock to be sure that all of the snipers had been covered and removed; all of his plans had centred on discovering the code which he thought Moriarty possessed which had enabled him to do seemingly impossible things.

But then he discovered that there was no code, that there was a boring and mundane method of achieving the apparently impossible. Moriarty had fooled him because Sherlock is wired to think of the complex rather than the simple. At that point Moriarty threatens him with the snipers set up to kill John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson, and tells him that the only way to prevent it is for Sherlock to jump from the roof; it is only when Sherlock realises that Moriarty has the means to call off his assassins that Moriarty commits suicide, Sherlock having convinced him that he is a great deal more ruthless than Mycroft when it comes to extracting information.

The question then is, what does Sherlock do? Moriarty may have been lying about the existence of the snipers but Moriarty has just committed suicide to prevent Sherlock from extracting the abort message, which suggests Moriarty was being truthful. So he does the thing which Moriarty told him was the visual abort message; he jumps off the roof.

And having survived jumping off the roof he has to stay 'dead' because otherwise he would almost certainly have been facing a murder charge since Moriarty is dead; it's difficult to takedown a world wide criminal network when you are in the dock at the Old Bailey. John is not safe with that kind of information, Lestrade would have arrested him and Mrs Hudson has a chequered enough history to make it a good idea not to associate her with someone suspected of murder...

why would sherlock suppose that jumping off the roof will succeed as a visual abort message that Moriarty's men will respect even if they see him land on a pillow?

You are assuming that the sight lines would inevitably mean that they would see him land and that they would wait to see him land. Neither of those two assumptions makes sense and the interactions between gravity and people who jump off buildings are well-known.

And then there's the fact that guns are very rare in London; someone with one wants it out of sight as soon as possible. They are not going to hang around a moment longer than they have to...

besleybean · January 25, 2014 10:20 pm

Plus they are going to be picked off anyway!

SherlocklivesinOH · January 25, 2014 11:15 pm

lisa wrote:
Can we address the change in Sherlock? He seems friendlier more humble, which is all explainable, he had so many of his friends come through and help him. I really had to get used to that though, but what is with the ladies man routine. He is having sex now? He was "the virgin" just a few episodes ago. Now don't get me wrong, I loved it, but I didn't expect it. My secret fantasy always was that after he saved Irene Adler they went off to some exoctic hotel and she "Thanked" him. So now I see that she probably did and taught him a few things. RoWWWWWW! Wish they made that into an episode! LOL!

Well, I could totally see Irene making that offer. I could even see her coming to the pathology lab and saying, "Come on Miss Hooper, let me give you a makeover and teach you some 'tricks' and let's both 'have dinner' with Sherlock."

In spite of her...history, I could see Irene playing, to Sherlock, the part of "maiden worshipping the hero who saved her."

But I would have thought that Sherlock's response would be, "Now, you know sex isn't my area. But you DO owe me." And I think Irene could have helped in some way with either the death-fakery or his hiding out for two years. I think one reason for Sherlock's saving Irene was so someone with that much cunning and ability to play tricks would "owe him one."

besleybean · January 25, 2014 11:21 pm

I personally hope never to see The Woman again.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 27, 2014 5:15 pm

lisa wrote:
Can we address the change in Sherlock? He seems friendlier more humble, which is all explainable, he had so many of his friends come through and help him. I really had to get used to that though, but what is with the ladies man routine. He is having sex now? He was "the virgin" just a few episodes ago. Now don't get me wrong, I loved it, but I didn't expect it. My secret fantasy always was that after he saved Irene Adler they went off to some exoctic hotel and she "Thanked" him. So now I see that she probably did and taught him a few things. RoWWWWWW! Wish they made that into an episode! LOL!

Under the "Irene's Cameo" thread under the Sign of Three threads, somebody posted that Benedict said this happened! I asked for the source...

besleybean · January 27, 2014 5:35 pm

And I replied to you on that thread saying: Benedict half jokingly said it may have happened.

Last edited by besleybean (January 27, 2014 5:35 pm)