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May 19, 2017 6:16 pm  #5081


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Of course not. But ist is quite frustrating if every time some people want to discuss plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever, other people tell them that they are happy with what they got. Which is fine but it does not belong in a discussion about said subjects. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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May 19, 2017 6:21 pm  #5082


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Just a thought: this is a board to discuss things. If somebody does not see the need to discuss one of the topics, do they really need to state that all the time? Simply join another discussion!


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May 19, 2017 6:22 pm  #5083


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good point. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

May 19, 2017 6:42 pm  #5084


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

Of course not. But those who do should be allowed to discuss them instead of being told at once that everything has been answered and the show is over. 

Vhanja, of course this is TV reality but it still has to make sense within its own universe. And there are a lot of things in S4 that do not make any sense at all. Maybe this is the wrong thread for this discussion and we should continue it elsewhere. 
 

Plot holes you can drive a truck through.
 


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May 20, 2017 10:15 am  #5085


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

“The heart and the soul of it isn’t just Sherlock Holmes. That’s really, really important. It’s the friendship between Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson. The best friendship ever depicted in fiction. (…) [You fall in love] with the fact that they adore each other. These two extraordinary, brilliant opposites, who have a simple uncomplicated mutual affection that happened instantly, and remained unchanged over decades, and was never discussed at all. That’s what people genuinely fall in love with. You cannot discuss Sherlock Holmes without discussing Doctor Watson.”

- Steven Moffat, 2010

And then it was not enough anymore and they chose to introduce Marvellous Mary Morstan ... This is exactly why people have problems in accepting the direction they took with Mary. They were given this and they loved it as much as Mark and Steven did. And in S3 and especially in S4 this adoration was gone, the uncomplicated mutual affection was gone. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (May 20, 2017 10:16 am)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

May 20, 2017 11:14 am  #5086


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

(sorry, my internet is being an a--e)
What I tried to say is: what I don't get(and it may possibly be personal to me) is why people see Mary as a threat to John and Sherlock's relationship. 
I tried to point out that even beyond the grave, she did everything she could to keep the boys together.
To me they still adore each other, nothing has changed.
Who can watch the final scenes and not think they adore each other? 


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May 20, 2017 11:29 am  #5087


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think she herself is a threat (often the opposite, I agree), but she brings about changes in their relationship - by getting married, shooting Sherlock, having a baby, dying, etc.   And I do remember discussion before S4 (I wasn't around before S3): people wanted their relationship to progress, to go through challenges, etc., rather than being a "simple, uncomplicated friendship".    Although that's the starting point, it seems to be the end point as well.  They go through the challenges and work their way back to simple, uncomplicated friendship by the end of S4.  

But yes, I suppose people might have wanted it to be more static - which is kind of how it is in the stories, I think (I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read them all). 

BB, I think they adore each other even more at the end! They are really solid in TFP, no question.  Maybe it would still be the same if they had nothing to ruffle the friendship, but maybe there's a different kind of closeness after all they've been through (including everything with Mary).

 

May 20, 2017 11:32 am  #5088


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Exactly, if anything, their shared grief bonds them closer.


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May 20, 2017 12:46 pm  #5089


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I agree. Mary creates a development in their relationship, in particular because it leads to them for the first time actually talking to each other. I do think that is more interesting than if their relationship had been more static as in S1 and S2.


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Team Hudders!
 
 

May 20, 2017 5:05 pm  #5090


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I disagree. I think it was Mary who disrupted their relationship. It was her unnecessary death that led to "anyone but you", to Sherlock drugging himself for weeks, to John beating and kicking Sherlock. It was her video that nearly killed Sherlock (because without Mycroft's car and Mrs Hudson's random remark about the knife on the mantelpiece John would not have found the DVD and Sherlock would have been killed by CS). 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

May 20, 2017 5:08 pm  #5091


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think Sherlock's drugginess was at least partly to catch CS.


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May 20, 2017 5:25 pm  #5092


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

I disagree. I think it was Mary who disrupted their relationship. It was her unnecessary death that led to "anyone but you", to Sherlock drugging himself for weeks, to John beating and kicking Sherlock. It was her video that nearly killed Sherlock (because without Mycroft's car and Mrs Hudson's random remark about the knife on the mantelpiece John would not have found the DVD and Sherlock would have been killed by CS). 

Without conflict or tension there wouldn't be much of a story, though, and their friendship became stronger and more meaningful because of what they went through. The fact that they were able to get through it and realize that even with everything that happened, they still couldn't live without each other. And they had a better understanding of themselves and each other. The whole "it is what it is" and the remarks about everyone being human and Sherlock coming to care about that shows the growth that their, especially Sherlock's, character has gone through.


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Clueing for looks.
 

May 20, 2017 5:37 pm  #5093


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Sherlock changes remarkably: from the needy nerd who requires a team of carers...he has grown into a healer and supporter.


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May 20, 2017 6:37 pm  #5094


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good point. 

Yes, Mary's death forced them apart (not her fault, obviously!), but it got them to that lovely scene together in TLD, which would have been difficult to imagine in S1/2.  (Not that I'd have wanted it in S1 or 2.  It's all the better for the wait, I think, and the knowledge that it's something different in their relationship).  

 

May 20, 2017 6:41 pm  #5095


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

Sherlock changes remarkably: from the needy nerd who requires a team of carers...he has grown into a healer and supporter.

A healer and supporter who will need to be there for John if and when there's a Season 5.  The shoe really needs to be on the other foot next time.
 

 

May 20, 2017 7:24 pm  #5096


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm not sure I would mind which foot the is shoe is on, if only we could get more!


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May 20, 2017 7:28 pm  #5097


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yeah, really!  But I want the shoe to be on the other foot next time.  John's got demons underneath the road he walks, too.  He needs to face them and come to terms with them, and I also think that he should fight for his life in a hospital next time, while he's at it.

 

Last edited by kgreen20 (May 20, 2017 7:31 pm)

 

May 20, 2017 8:40 pm  #5098


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Wow, quite a tall order!


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May 21, 2017 6:51 am  #5099


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yeah, I wouldn't mind more John myself. However, if we ever have more, I would like to see more of John supporting and helping Sherlock - we have seen plenty the other way around, it's John's turn to step up now.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

May 21, 2017 7:33 am  #5100


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

John has always been there when it mattered.
But he's human and has his little stomps.


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