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May 18, 2017 10:30 am  #4901


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Exactly. I deeply regret this but it has discouraged me to start new discussions. I think there are lots of unsolved questions but it seems people do not wish to discuss these anymore. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 18, 2017 12:54 pm  #4902


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

Well, I tried to keep it going but many discussions have been cut short by people saying the show is over.

Which is really silly. 
People still discuss the original series of Star Trek and that aired for 3 seasons in the 60's! 
There are still panel discussions at conventions for TV and movies that were made decades ago.
When it comes to intellectual discourse on a work of art/entertainment I must quote Sherlock himself - The game is NEVER over.
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

May 18, 2017 1:09 pm  #4903


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well said tonnaree.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 18, 2017 1:14 pm  #4904


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Bravo, tonnaree! 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 18, 2017 4:21 pm  #4905


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm glad to see positivity around here.
I am a massive fan of the show, too and also love to discuss it.
Possibly this is just personal thing for me:  I don't agree with everything in the show, but I accept it's Mark and Steven's vision and understand why they do things.
What gets to me a bit, is if people somehow seem to be saying that the team got it wrong.
Not at all: if you and the rest of the world don't like something in the show, fine, that's your right.
But I still love it and in no way does it make it in anyway wrong.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 18, 2017 7:03 pm  #4906


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I've been rather sad about the lack of discussion too.  I think there's a number of things going on.  Yes, there has been an ending, and although it doesn't mean things can't be discussed (of course they can!) it does mean that we know how it ends (at least the current run of series) and there's not nearly as much room for speculation as there was after the previous series'.   We know Mary isn't a villain, and that Sherlock and John aren't conspiring against her, for instance. 

I think in general, Sherlock was flavour of the month a few years ago, and now has suffered a backlash (as has Benedict, to some extent). I've seen this happen before, with other shows - it just becomes less fashionable to like them.

I think it has been very Moffat-influenced, perhaps more than it was at the beginning, and he seems to be quite a divisive writer in some ways.  I have mixed feelings about Doctor Who, so I understand people who don't like his direction.  (I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't watched it, but I felt that Clara became much more important than she "should" be in DW, perhaps in a similar way to Mary in Sherlock.  It bothered me more with Clara than with Mary, but I can see why Mary would bother people).  Moffat seems to love things to be emotional and personal, he loves to go back to childhood, family, etc. and he did that in a big way in S4.  I have seen an awful lot of anti-Moffat sentiment in the Doctor Who fandom, and also people who love him as a writer but not a showrunner.  He was very much showrunning Sherlock. 

The Johnlock thing (as in the group that believed it would happen in the show, rather than the group who shipped them) was huge in the fandom, as far as I could see, and now that aspect has been kind of debunked, there is nowhere to go with that (although long may the shipping continue!  But I understand it's not quite the same without the hope/belief that it will actually happen). 

S4 was self-admittedly self-indulgent - Moftiss have claimed to be writing for themselves, not fans or the general public, and described this one as "insane wish fulfilment".   They went over the top in that direction, I think.  I loved it, but not everybody did. 

And finally (although I'm sure there are lots of other reasons!), it was bigged up a bit too much, for fans rather than the general public, at least.   It wasn't really groundbreaking or TV history that the same actress played different parts in disguise - it was just a very fun and clever twist.  Although I loved what we got, I'd expected more of an "event". 

 

May 18, 2017 7:05 pm  #4907


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Think I've said this before, possibly it's more about expectation then...


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 19, 2017 5:13 pm  #4908


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm thinking the same, Liberty. There are less room for speculation because we have received quite a lot of answers. Since the writers don't know if there will be more, they wrote a possible end to the series. So there are no cliffhanger to discuss.

That doesn't mean that there aren't anything to discuss, of course, but that explains the lack of acitivity for me.

Also, I wouldn't say the reviews were bad, but that they were mixed. Which makes sense to me, as that is how I see the fandom as well.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 19, 2017 5:18 pm  #4909


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The reactions from fans and critics alike have been definitely less enthusiastic than before. Especially where TFP is concerned. 

As for the discussion: I am not talking about cliffhangers here but about the fact that many questions have not been answered. That many things do not make sense. That TFP is an episode that has baffled large parts of the fandom and critics as well. That there are many loose ends. And since I am not among those attacking the writers for bad writing I try to find other answers. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 19, 2017 5:48 pm  #4910


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, I guess it's difficult for me when S 4 was mt favourite and I was happy with everything we were given and nothing was missing  foe me...except more episodes!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 19, 2017 5:53 pm  #4911


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But not everybody see those questions as unanswered. Quite a few are content with the answers we were given or think that it does - for the most part - make sense. And what doesn't make sense, I at least, can easily handwave away as "TV reality". Because there has been things like that from S1, it's part of television for me.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 19, 2017 6:01 pm  #4912


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Of course not. But those who do should be allowed to discuss them instead of being told at once that everything has been answered and the show is over. 

Vhanja, of course this is TV reality but it still has to make sense within its own universe. And there are a lot of things in S4 that do not make any sense at all. Maybe this is the wrong thread for this discussion and we should continue it elsewhere. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 19, 2017 6:11 pm  #4913


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I agree, they should. Although that is also av valid reply. 

But I do think that should go the other way too - I don't think "but other people agree with me" is an argument in itself. You will always find someone else who agree with you - or with me. That doesn't mean that our opinion is more valid or more right than any other.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 19, 2017 6:16 pm  #4914


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Of course not. But ist is quite frustrating if every time some people want to discuss plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever, other people tell them that they are happy with what they got. Which is fine but it does not belong in a discussion about said subjects. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 19, 2017 6:21 pm  #4915


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Just a thought: this is a board to discuss things. If somebody does not see the need to discuss one of the topics, do they really need to state that all the time? Simply join another discussion!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 19, 2017 6:22 pm  #4916


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good point. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 19, 2017 6:42 pm  #4917


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

Of course not. But those who do should be allowed to discuss them instead of being told at once that everything has been answered and the show is over. 

Vhanja, of course this is TV reality but it still has to make sense within its own universe. And there are a lot of things in S4 that do not make any sense at all. Maybe this is the wrong thread for this discussion and we should continue it elsewhere. 
 

Plot holes you can drive a truck through.
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

May 20, 2017 10:15 am  #4918


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

“The heart and the soul of it isn’t just Sherlock Holmes. That’s really, really important. It’s the friendship between Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson. The best friendship ever depicted in fiction. (…) [You fall in love] with the fact that they adore each other. These two extraordinary, brilliant opposites, who have a simple uncomplicated mutual affection that happened instantly, and remained unchanged over decades, and was never discussed at all. That’s what people genuinely fall in love with. You cannot discuss Sherlock Holmes without discussing Doctor Watson.”

- Steven Moffat, 2010

And then it was not enough anymore and they chose to introduce Marvellous Mary Morstan ... This is exactly why people have problems in accepting the direction they took with Mary. They were given this and they loved it as much as Mark and Steven did. And in S3 and especially in S4 this adoration was gone, the uncomplicated mutual affection was gone. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (May 20, 2017 10:16 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 20, 2017 11:14 am  #4919


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

(sorry, my internet is being an a--e)
What I tried to say is: what I don't get(and it may possibly be personal to me) is why people see Mary as a threat to John and Sherlock's relationship. 
I tried to point out that even beyond the grave, she did everything she could to keep the boys together.
To me they still adore each other, nothing has changed.
Who can watch the final scenes and not think they adore each other? 


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 20, 2017 11:29 am  #4920


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think she herself is a threat (often the opposite, I agree), but she brings about changes in their relationship - by getting married, shooting Sherlock, having a baby, dying, etc.   And I do remember discussion before S4 (I wasn't around before S3): people wanted their relationship to progress, to go through challenges, etc., rather than being a "simple, uncomplicated friendship".    Although that's the starting point, it seems to be the end point as well.  They go through the challenges and work their way back to simple, uncomplicated friendship by the end of S4.  

But yes, I suppose people might have wanted it to be more static - which is kind of how it is in the stories, I think (I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read them all). 

BB, I think they adore each other even more at the end! They are really solid in TFP, no question.  Maybe it would still be the same if they had nothing to ruffle the friendship, but maybe there's a different kind of closeness after all they've been through (including everything with Mary).

 

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