I can see a way in which it might work, but I don't really have much trouble with what we got. Especially since it includes Martin's finest acting moments to date. 

You make some great points, athameg. And we've seen throughout the series (in particular in TRF) how John quickly returns to the stiff upper lip when there are people around, watching. So he would never faint in public. (It is interesting, though, that he views aggression as a more acceptable emotion to show in public).

Edit: There is a lot of focus on how repressed John is, emotionally. Which is very true, all the way back to ASiP. John has always bottled everything. Which, when I think of it, gives TLD, another great layer.

1. It gives the horryfing consequences when John stops bottling his anger and it ends up as horrible violece towards Sherlock
2. It also gives the most amazing consequences when, for the first time, John dares to let his guard down infront of someone else.

Remember back in ASIP when John wakes from his nightmare. He is so repressed he can't even cry when alone. In TBB he is so ashamed of the "row with the machine" that he just walks out, and only with great difficulty does he ask Sherlock for money. In TRF, only minutes after Sherlock falls, he again bottles up, dismisses any comfort from other people, giving "I'm fine" vibe to the people surrounding him.

For John to not only cry in front of Sherlock, but to also accept is comfort, is huge. More than huge, it's enormous. Something we have never seen him doing before. 

People keep asking for his apology to Sherlock. Which I wouldn't have minded myself. But considering where John comes from, there is no bigger leap of trust than what John gives Sherlock in that moment. And I get the impression that Sherlock understands all this. Sherlock has never been wiser than he is in that hug.

Last edited by Vhanja (March 17, 2017 9:30 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

For John to not only cry in front of Sherlock, but to also accept is comfort, is huge. More than huge, it's enormous. Something we have never seen him doing before. 

People keep asking for his apology to Sherlock. Which I wouldn't have minded myself. But considering where John comes from, there is no bigger leap of trust than what John gives Sherlock in that moment. And I get the impression that Sherlock understands all this. Sherlock has never been wiser than he is in that hug.

Beautifully said. 

 

I think both Sherlock and John learned and awful lot about themselves, particularly from the death of Mary.

I know and not even the last episode!

Thanks! - And, of course, it is not really the "end". But it is a scene that changes a lot.

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I think the on screen doctoring we do see in Sherlock is limited by the creator's actual knowledge of science, anatomy, medical stuff. They just throw stuff in occasionally to remind us that he's a doctor, but the fact that he is a doctor isn't an integral part of the story, unless it absolutely needs to be. This series is, and always has been, more about the characters' relationships with one another than anything else, and that allows for a lot of creative license.

A lot of the choices they made for John in S4 and the direction they took him in, which really started in S3 E1 with John's reaction to Sherlock's faked death, have definitely shocked me and surprised me. It's not the John Watson we know from canon who fainted when Sherlock revealed that he was alive, but then, this isn't the canon and this isn't that era. This is modern era Sherlock Holmes where people respond and react differently, and this John Watson is just one interpretation of the character. Whether you agree with the direction they've taken him in or not, it's certainly made for some interesting discussion.

To some extent I can understand his anger and frustration at Sherlock. I get that he was pissed at him for faking his death. He appeared to get over that by the end of S3 although I suspect there's still some bitterness lingering that may resurface occasionally into banter. I get that he was pissed at him over Mary, and that he blamed him. That was his immediate reaction, even if it was the wrong one, but I did feel it was slightly over dramatic and dragged on for a little too long. Because it really wasn't Sherlock's fault that she made that decision. She CHOSE to jump in front of that bullet, and they wouldn't have all been there in the first place if it wasn't for Mary's shitty past and the fact that Sherlock was trying to help her. So yeah, I can understand John's initial anger but I felt it was misplaced for it to go on for so long, and the way he beat him up in TLD was pretty difficult to watch.

Some of you mentioned the other characters...

I've always felt as though Molly has been little more than a plot device, and that felt particularly true in S4. I had hoped she'd moved on from her hopeless doting on Sherlock Holmes but clearly not. And now her emotional state is going to be worse than ever because of that scene in the flat. I think they need to do something more exciting/interesting with her character development or kill her off, tbh.

Mycroft, on the other hand, has developed wonderfully. We always knew there was a softer side somewhere and now we've seen it. We know for a fact now that both brothers DO care, it's not just Sherlock. Mycroft has emotions too. Shock horror. I mean really, we knew it all along, I've just been dying to actually see it on screen. The moment in TFP when Mycroft tried to get Sherlock to shoot him was the highlight of his character development so far. We've seen hints at it, but this was the ultimate pay off. I'd be interested to see where it goes from there and where it leaves them as brothers and their relationship with one another. 

Yeah, really!  It would indeed be interesting to see where their relationship goes from here, if a 5th season is ever filmed.  And as a John Watson fan, I'd also love to see John and Mycroft's own relationship developing.  So far, what they have in common has been their combined concern for Sherlock, as their periodic discussions indicate, but with Mary dead, his own parents also dead and his alcoholic older sister unable to be there for him when he needs her, and John a now-single father with issues from his past he still needs to resolve, I'd love to see the Holmeses take him and Rosie under their wing.  He's shown concern for Sherlock over the past 4 seasons, so I'd like to see Sherlock and Mycroft (as well as their parents) showing concern for John in the next.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (March 18, 2017 10:52 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

You make some great points, athameg. And we've seen throughout the series (in particular in TRF) how John quickly returns to the stiff upper lip when there are people around, watching. So he would never faint in public. (It is interesting, though, that he views aggression as a more acceptable emotion to show in public).

Edit: There is a lot of focus on how repressed John is, emotionally. Which is very true, all the way back to ASiP. John has always bottled everything. Which, when I think of it, gives TLD, another great layer.

1. It gives the horryfing consequences when John stops bottling his anger and it ends up as horrible violece towards Sherlock
2. It also gives the most amazing consequences when, for the first time, John dares to let his guard down infront of someone else.

Remember back in ASIP when John wakes from his nightmare. He is so repressed he can't even cry when alone. In TBB he is so ashamed of the "row with the machine" that he just walks out, and only with great difficulty does he ask Sherlock for money. In TRF, only minutes after Sherlock falls, he again bottles up, dismisses any comfort from other people, giving "I'm fine" vibe to the people surrounding him.

For John to not only cry in front of Sherlock, but to also accept is comfort, is huge. More than huge, it's enormous. Something we have never seen him doing before. 

People keep asking for his apology to Sherlock. Which I wouldn't have minded myself. But considering where John comes from, there is no bigger leap of trust than what John gives Sherlock in that moment. And I get the impression that Sherlock understands all this. Sherlock has never been wiser than he is in that hug.

You've made some good points.  However, John still has more healing to go through, and I want there to be at least one more season just for that.
 

athameg wrote:

It's true: both Sherlock and John learned an awful lot about themselves, and so much trust between them is an new thing and really moving.

Vhanja said, John is repressed emotionally, he has always bottled up everything. And that is very true, in my opinion. John has been at war, he was wounded, he has seen terrible things, undoubtedly over a long period of time. Therefore he suffers PTSD. And that is the key to his behaviour. I am kind of expert in this, because I have lived in a very extreme situation for some time (details are unimportant, that's boring for anyone else). In such a situation one learns mainly one thing: survive, everything else does not matter. Emotions are luxury. And weakness is not a good idea, because if you are weak you will perhaps not survive. And if you still have feelings, you do not risk any feelings that look like weakness. You will not cry (I cannot cry, not even when I am alone). Being aggressive is much easier because being aggressive is not weak. And you have the excuse "it is not my fault that I have PTSD". That is why you do not apologize. Apologizing is weak.

And if someone like John is actually able to be weak, to cry, even in the presence of someone else, it is an incredible improvement. And if Sherlock, the alleged "psychopath", can react accordingly this is an equally incredible improvement. - I know, "happy end" is a terribly stupid concept. But this is a happy end. One of the most beautiful I know.

That John still has healing from his war experiences to go through cannot be doubted.  I rather suspect, though, that in his case, it's more than that.  Here's a Web page that explains why may also be the case with John:

http://esterbrook.tumblr.com/post/104562523718/something-has-been-niggling-at-the-back-of-my-mind

If the author is right, John not only needs to complete his recovery from the trauma of war, he also needs to recover from childhood traumas.  Another season--or, at least, another one-shot episode--would be ideal to cover that.


 

I would like to know more about John and, yes, there seem to be issues in his life that have not been solved. But the focus has been so much on Sherlock and his family that I am not sure we will get more John history. If there will be a series 5, however, I am all for it and I really would love to meet Harry.