John's violence

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Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 10:08 pm
#181

I keep seeing people go on about mental manipulation/abuse as being worse than physical abuse: and I think many don't get this fact: Physical abuse is also mental abuse and manipulation: it's terrorizing someone. It's intimidation. It's forcing someone to constantly gauge the other person's mood, lest they be on the receiving end of that person's rage. It's constantly changing your behavior to fit someone else's expectations, their moods, their values, their opinions... suddenly, you have no agency of your own-- everything depends on what your abuser thinks of you at any given moment. That can depend on what they had for breakfast, whether they got the job, if they blame you for something you didn't do-- because you're the automatic whipping boy. 

Physical abuse IS emotional and mental abuse, with the added bonus of visible, tangible scars to carry with you for the rest of your life. 

It destroys your ability to trust someone, anyone-- to not hurt you

So, now Sherlock-- well, maybe he stops deducing. Maybe he shuts up. Maybe he quits being Sherlock. 
Or maybe he relapses. 
Y'all realize that beatings will only make Sherlock want to self-medicate even more, right? It's a response to pain...

Maybe you should take my words with a grain of salt--(TMI)  because I know exactly what it's like-- I got beaten a lot as a child and as a young woman. (Boyfriends) I still have a scar on the back of my leg from it.  So, maybe I'm a little biased. 

I get that this is fiction. That's not what bothers me. It's that fact that some people love John Watson so much that they are willing to sweep this under the rug and thereby invalidate the experiences of those who are the survivors of abuse-- in order to "Protect John Watson At All Costs". 

Sorry-- I got a little heavy. Hey, TFP may make all of this a moot point. I hope so!

 

 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 10:09 pm
#182

besleybean wrote:

When John is speaking to Greg, he seems ashamed of how hard he hit Sherlock.

Yes, he is not proud of it and regrets it. He is calm now, just tired and is trying to understand what happened and why it happened and if he could have foreseen it somehow and prevent it. 
How he could have got to the point when he beaten up his best friend whom he hates at the moment for many reasons but it does not mean that he is not still his friend. He is a monster but his monster.And Mary would never forgive him if anything bad happen to Sherlock.

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 10:14 pm
#183

Preceja wrote:

Yes, we are finally getting somewhere. Only you want separate cause and result. Why? Nobody does this without cause. 

I am not separating cause and result, I am just removing justifications (like - John needed to make a punching bag out of Sherlock because of reasons). 
Because if he was not merely pushed into this violent act by physical processes described in that medical article, if it was actually his intent to hurt Sherlock or he reduced Sherlock to a bloody heap to relieve his own misery, then their relationship can never again be called friendship in my eyes....
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 10:16 pm
#184

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I keep seeing people go on about mental manipulation/abuse as being worse than physical abuse: and I think many don't get this fact: Physical abuse is also mental abuse and manipulation: it's terrorizing someone. It's intimidation. It's forcing someone to constantly gauge the other person's mood, lest they be on the receiving end of that person's rage. It's constantly changing your behavior to fit someone else's expectations, their moods, their values, their opinions... suddenly, you have no agency of your own-- everything depends on what your abuser thinks of you at any given moment. That can depend on what they had for breakfast, whether they got the job, if they blame you for something you didn't do-- because you're the automatic whipping boy. 

Physical abuse IS emotional and mental abuse, with the added bonus of visible, tangible scars to carry with you for the rest of your life. 

It destroys your ability to trust someone, anyone-- to not hurt you
 

BIG APPLAUSE.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 10:18 pm
#185

nakahara wrote:

Dumai wrote:

.... its so strange that he somehow wants Sherlock to help him when John himself cant even apologize.

Thank you, its very true.
I might add that next to his inability to apologise, he also cannot say "thank you.".
Sherlock shot CAM to keep him and Mary safe - and was willing to go to death mission to atone for that. And did we hear any thanks from John for Sherlock´s self-sacrifice? Not a word.
 

Yep..

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 10:22 pm
#186

Preceja wrote:

besleybean wrote:

When John is speaking to Greg, he seems ashamed of how hard he hit Sherlock.

Yes, he is not proud of it and regrets it. He is calm now, just tired and is trying to understand what happened and why it happened and if he could have foreseen it somehow and prevent it. 
How he could have got to the point when he beaten up his best friend whom he hates at the moment for many reasons but it does not mean that he is not still his friend. He is a monster but his monster.And Mary would never forgive him if anything bad happen to Sherlock.

John calling Sherlock a monster is like a pot calling the kettle black...


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 10:26 pm
#187

nakahara wrote:

Preceja wrote:

besleybean wrote:

When John is speaking to Greg, he seems ashamed of how hard he hit Sherlock.

Yes, he is not proud of it and regrets it. He is calm now, just tired and is trying to understand what happened and why it happened and if he could have foreseen it somehow and prevent it. 
How he could have got to the point when he beaten up his best friend whom he hates at the moment for many reasons but it does not mean that he is not still his friend. He is a monster but his monster.And Mary would never forgive him if anything bad happen to Sherlock.

John calling Sherlock a monster is like a pot calling the kettle black...

And he said that Sherlock becoming a murderer ( Magnussen) in order to protect JOHN'S MARRIAGE TO THE WOMAN THAT SHOT HIM--"Fun". Sigh....

 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 10:28 pm
#188

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I keep seeing people go on about mental manipulation/abuse as being worse than physical abuse: and I think many don't get this fact: Physical abuse is also mental abuse and manipulation: it's terrorizing someone. It's intimidation. It's forcing someone to constantly gauge the other person's mood, lest they be on the receiving end of that person's rage. It's constantly changing your behavior to fit someone else's expectations, their moods, their values, their opinions... suddenly, you have no agency of your own-- everything depends on what your abuser thinks of you at any given moment. That can depend on what they had for breakfast, whether they got the job, if they blame you for something you didn't do-- because you're the automatic whipping boy. 

Physical abuse IS emotional and mental abuse, with the added bonus of visible, tangible scars to carry with you for the rest of your life. 

It destroys your ability to trust someone, anyone-- to not hurt you
 

BIG APPLAUSE.

 (((BLUSH!!!))))
(Curtsy)

 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 10:41 pm
#189

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

That's not what bothers me. It's that fact that some people love John Watson so much that they are willing to sweep this under the rug and thereby invalidate the experiences of those who are the survivors of abuse-- in order to "Protect John Watson At All Costs". 

Sorry-- I got a little heavy. Hey, TFP may make all of this a moot point. I hope so!
 

You are really not unbiased.
The first and big mistake in my opinion is to use word abuse here. If we understand it as you have described and not every hit between two boys, every fight after which participants are having beer together and forget it while people here  would acuse one or another how hard hurt the other one and how irremediable consequencies is it going to have.

There is no way how to apply abuse on the relationship of John and Sherlock. 

It is funny how we are able to judge feelings and intentions from gestures and expressions of Martin and Benedict. How far we got based on only actors. It is clear how incredibly good they are. 

 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 10:48 pm
#190

Preceja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

That's not what bothers me. It's that fact that some people love John Watson so much that they are willing to sweep this under the rug and thereby invalidate the experiences of those who are the survivors of abuse-- in order to "Protect John Watson At All Costs". 

Sorry-- I got a little heavy. Hey, TFP may make all of this a moot point. I hope so!
 

You are really not unbiased.
The first and big mistake in my opinion is to use word abuse here. If we understand it as you have described and not every hit between two boys, every fight after which participants are having beer together and forget it while people here  would acuse one or another how hard hurt the other one and how irremediable consequencies is it going to have.

There is no way how to apply abuse on the relationship of John and Sherlock. 

It is funny how we are able to judge feelings and intentions from gestures and expressions of Martin and Benedict. How far we got based on only actors. It is clear how incredibly good they are. 

Serious question; do you think that if it's two men, abuse is not a word that should ever be used to describe a situation where one perpetrates violence against the other? To my mind, if the word abuse is a problem, then maybe assault is more appropriate? 

 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 11:00 pm
#191

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Serious question; do you think that if it's two men, abuse is not a word that should ever be used to describe a situation where one perpetrates violence against the other? To my mind, if the word abuse is a problem, then maybe assault is more appropriate? 

Also with two men it can be abuse. But not everything even somehow violent is necessarily abuse at least as I understand it. There must be some victim, nobody here feels a victim. They are friends are able to understand (even Sherlock starts), help , forgive. And most important despite of Sherlock's manipulative and John's violent tendencies do not intend in long term intimidate anybody, respect each other and do not allow anybody make them into victims.

And the plot would not work with abuse, anyway .

English is foreign language for me so I may understand it a bit different. Assault is one time attack for many possible reasons? It is violent but neutral for me without context.
 

Last edited by Preceja (January 12, 2017 11:04 pm)

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 11:12 pm
#192

Preceja wrote:

The first and big mistake in my opinion is to use word abuse here. If we understand it as you have described and not every hit between two boys, every fight after which participants are having beer together and forget it while people here  would acuse one or another how hard hurt the other one and how irremediable consequencies is it going to have.

But can this really be cathegorised as a simple brawl between two men?

In the first place - one of them never hit back. And we knew he never would beforehand - because he never ever responded to the other´s violence with his own.

Second - it was not something light. John was kicking Sherlock into his torso, maybe even to the freshly healed surgical scar that shouldn´t be there, but which was placed on Sherlock by (oh, the irony!) John´s wife for the heinous crime of offering help to her. I know this is fiction, but still - people in real life were killed that way. It´s horrible to look at.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 11:26 pm
#193

Yes - from John's side not rational human reaction of average man in such circumstances. From Sherlock's side it was part of his plan , I do  not how much, at  least the beginning so he had to play along. He had to expect at least something . He was able to defend himself just decided not to as the best solution. 
But above all , it is clear that they two consider it no problem.

I know such people and they are still best friends, why not, it is just necessary to speak, forgive, be sure that both sides feel it the same way. Nobody is only good or bad , every good person can do something bad from time to time. 

 

Last edited by Preceja (January 12, 2017 11:29 pm)

 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 11:56 pm
#194

Preceja wrote:

Yes - from John's side not rational human reaction of average man in such circumstances. From Sherlock's side it was part of his plan , I do  not how much, at  least the beginning so he had to play along. He had to expect at least something . He was able to defend himself just decided not to as the best solution. 
But above all , it is clear that they two consider it no problem.

I know such people and they are still best friends, why not, it is just necessary to speak, forgive, be sure that both sides feel it the same way. Nobody is only good or bad , every good person can do something bad from time to time. 

 

So, basically-- if Sherlock, feeling put upon, finally beats and kicks John-- till he's bleeding and spitting blood (same as John beating Sherlock) , that would be fine? Just two guys roughhousing? Just trying to be clear.
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 12, 2017 11:57 pm)

 
Posted by Preceja
January 13, 2017 12:16 am
#195

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

So, basically-- if Sherlock, feeling put upon, finally beats and kicks John-- till he's bleeding and spitting blood (same as John beating Sherlock) , that would be fine? Just two guys roughhousing? Just trying to be clear.
 

If they are acting under some mutual agreement  yes, given that not both of them are unable to control. Here Sherlock would better immobilize John (he is big enough and strong enough to do it) and wait till he calms down or  he would  call help. If only he wanted.
It is stupid but it happens and participants are able to deal with it and get out of it without any permanent harm to their bodies mind or friendship.  .

 
Posted by NoShipSherlock
January 13, 2017 1:15 am
#196

This thread has been very interesting to follow.  I am new to this site, and I would like to commend everyone on posting such insightful, intelligent and respectful comments.  This is a wonderful fan forum! 
Second, I think it is a testament to the writers and actors that we all feel so strongly and passionate about these characters.  I am so glad I found this site to be able to discuss situations and characters with such depth of thought.

      I very much agree with Preceja's take on the scene in question.  It was horrible what John did to Sherlock but I still think that the scene works in this episode and situation, with some dramatic license of course.  I think the term "assault" does work better than "abuse." as was mentioned by RavenMorganLeigh.   I think the assault was necessary to this scene and episode, though maybe in retrospect could have been toned down a little.  I do not think this is just 2 guys in a fistfight and everything is forgotten.  It was definitely more serious than that. 
      What I do think is that it was necessary to show both men at their absolute lowest points.  Sherlock is destroying himself, allegedly to save John but I think he also feels immense guilt that he does not know how to deal with, and John has just hit the lowest possible emotional state he can be in, is extremely angry and frustrated and is beyond rational thought.  Beating up your best friend could obviously irreconcilably end a friendship.  But I think it could also make it stronger.  I don't excuse what either did, but I think this scene works and in a way it does show their humanity.    I would never suggest that someone stay in an abusive relationship but I just really don't see their relationship that way. 
      What I see is two people who see each other at their absolute worst and choose to forgive each other. They mutually chose to forgive and forget.  They needed to go through this hell to see what is really important to both of them and that is each other and their friendship. 
      Love is not always pretty.  To truly love someone, you need to accept both the very best and the very worst in that person and love that person anyway for all their characteristics.  I think John and Sherlock each chose to do that evidenced by their hug at the end.  I do not think their relationship will ever reach this low a point again.  I think John is truly repentant, even though he is not actually shown apologizing to Sherlock.  And I think Sherlock is sorry as well, but I cannot remember him apologizing for ruining himself with drugs either.  I think the apology is understood and unsaid between both of them.  I think that both of them will now support and champion each other as true friends from here out. 
     John's actions are hard to watch and should not be excused, but, like Preceja, I get it. I understand how and why it could happen this way.  I wish it hadn't, but as was also referenced in the episode, "It is what it is."  It happened and they found a way to still love each other and deepen their friendship as a result of an awful, awful act. 
      I think we should ultimately focus on the end result of the assault, not the assault itself.  Again, for me, I feel like they went through the worst thing they could possibly go through and came through stronger and with a deeper love for one another and a deeper friendship than before.  That is what I ultimately took from this episode. 

      I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who has been exposed to any kind of real emotional or physical abuse.  No one should ever have to endure that and I am sure this scene was even more terrible if you have gone through something like that.  That is never okay. 
My comments are discussing only the specific situation portrayed by these characters. 
 


"Is that why you're calling yourself Greg?" 
"That's his name!"
"Is it?"
 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 13, 2017 4:55 am
#197

Preceja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

So, basically-- if Sherlock, feeling put upon, finally beats and kicks John-- till he's bleeding and spitting blood (same as John beating Sherlock) , that would be fine? Just two guys roughhousing? Just trying to be clear.
 

If they are acting under some mutual agreement  yes, given that not both of them are unable to control. Here Sherlock would better immobilize John (he is big enough and strong enough to do it) and wait till he calms down or  he would  call help. If only he wanted.
It is stupid but it happens and participants are able to deal with it and get out of it without any permanent harm to their bodies mind or friendship.  .

Errr-- if it's okay for John to beat Sherlock until he's spitting blood, then it ought to be just fine for Sherlock to do the same. While not resisting, as Sherlock did. John-- shouldn't try to defend himself, just like Sherlock allowed John to punch, and kick Sherlock-- even when he was on the ground. And if John's ill, or sick or something-- that doesn't matter. What's good for the goose...
 

 
Posted by besleybean
January 13, 2017 6:33 am
#198

We appear to have strayed into the area of ifs and buts and maybes...
What happened was John gave Sherlock a beating and Sherlock took it...
They have both kind of explained why.
I suppose we have to try and accept it and move on, thy seem to have done so.
Yes, this is exactly what I said when Mary shot Sherlock.
To me, it seems the same sort of situation.
We seem to angst more than the characters do.
I guess that's TV for you.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 
Posted by Schmiezi
January 13, 2017 6:45 am
#199

besleybean wrote:

We appear to have strayed into the area of ifs and buts and maybes...
What happened was John gave Sherlock a beating and Sherlock took it...
They have both kind of explained why.
I suppose we have to try and accept it and move on, thy seem to have done so.
Yes, this is exactly what I said when Mary shot Sherlock.
To me, it seems the same sort of situation.
We seem to angst more than the characters do.
I guess that's TV for you.

I seldom say so ;-) but I think you are absolutely right here bb!


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 
Posted by besleybean
January 13, 2017 6:52 am
#200

Gosh, and here was me awaiting the usual telling off!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 


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