John's violence

Skip to: New Posts  Last Post
Page:  Next »
Posted by Dumai
January 12, 2017 12:50 am
#161

It still makes me feel horrible if I see thisscene again.... I read a lot of your posts about that... Its very interesting to know how you feel about it. I dont know... for me that didnt really fit. It was just too much. Dont get me wrong, I dont compare that to RL (as some mentioned) but John and Sherlock are best friends and I dont know its just not right that they treat each other like that. Ofc I get it why John is so... strange since Marys death but still, it was too much. And it was even more strange that he didnt really apologize for it. He continued with Sherlock like everything would be okay. John needed Sherlock in that moment when he hugged him but its so strange that he somehow wants Sherlock to help him when John himself cant even apologize. That really makes me feel sad... I just hope that the writers are going to give John a scene next episode where he apologizes and that they will never add such a scene again. Cant stand that.

Last edited by Dumai (January 12, 2017 12:52 am)

 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 1:29 am
#162

nakahara wrote:

Which mental manipulation from Sherlock was as bad as this?

He killed his wife, is not it bad enough? Does not matter that it is not true, he feels it that way, is broken , is not able to be rational. 

Lets imagine:

John is hiding from Sherlock, he knows that it is not a good idea to meet him. He is grieving, unable to take care of his daughter, unable to sleep, hardly able to work, 
But he is forced to meet Sherlock, who is on drugs, looks terrible and asks for help. John remembers the past, all the tricks, lies ,manipulations by which Sherlock got him where he wanted. He does not believe him. Not any more. Last time he trusted him and lost his wife. Is it another dirty trick to reconciliate them like  in  the underground?  Not now, after all that. But it is hard to resist Mrs. Hudson and Mary (i.e. his subconscious) thinks it is at least worth to try.  So he goes with Sherlock. Molly confirms that Sherlock is destroying himself quite efficiently. How far is Sherlock able to go to manipulate  John? With all the drugs it must be pleasure for him, so he can expect anything. Or it is not a trick, who knows with Sherlock.
Sherlock is not willing to share any information, as usually, so John has no idea in what he participates. As many times before must trust Sherlock but  he does not any more. And what happens looks  weird.
Later in the hospital Sherlock seems to be sane and  up to something and what CS says.. everything reminds John good old times when they were working on cases together, he starts enjoying it and for the first time after Mary's death he feels a bit better, not just thinking about her, he starts to believe that maybe , sometimes later, much later,his grief can weaken.
But then, suddenly , what started to be so promising occured to be just a drug fantasy. Sherlock does not recognize the woman who was supposed to give him information about CS, so what are they doing there? What is real? CS is disgusting but it is not a crime. It is  another Sherlock's lie or drug phantasmagoria, does not matter what? Just at the moment John started to see hope . There is no hope , Mary is dead , nothing will ever change, why he agreed to join this nonsense?
Sherlock has a scalpel and starts to behave mad, nervous and agresive, John tries to calm him down it does not work. When Sherlock attacs CS, John must stop him. It is surprisingly easy. Either John is really angry or Sherlock weak. Or both. But what, it was his choise to use drugs and destroy himself. Does he think that John would feel sorry for his heath conditions that is only the result of this? 
The slap was doctor thing,just to wake up Sherlock, to make him realize where he is and what he is doing. But there was something very satisfying in it. It opened something in John that he was suppressing since Mary's death. What game is Sherlock playing now, how does he dare? (Punch) John is not sure, he is not sure of anything but that he does not want to play any games any more. Not with Sherlock. Is it a game, a bloody game? (Punch)He started to trust him and what is the end? He gave him hope and took it from him again (Punch). 
Last time he trusted him  Mary died (Kick) He told he would protect her (Kick) He promised (Kick) John was her husband , he was supposed to protect her but Sherlock was so confident (Kick) John believed him that he would protect Mary better then him(Kick) And Mary died (Kick) Because of this stupid overconfident....."Yes, you killed her"

So is it out of character? Is it really so impossible to understand this? Not to approve just understand that it can happen? That under certain circumstances it can happen to anybody even in real life? Are you 100% sure that you would never ever do anything like it? I do not think that most people can say that. 

Last edited by Preceja (January 12, 2017 1:33 am)

 
Posted by KeepersPrice
January 12, 2017 1:52 am
#163

Thank you, Preceja. This is the inner monologue, the subtext perfectly expressed.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

 
Posted by WhoIWantToBe
January 12, 2017 2:09 am
#164

I just had some interesting insight from a friend regarding this scene. She is a paramedic, and she witnessed a patient plunge a scalpel into her partner inside the ambulance. The patient was high yet unrestained, they had administered a sedative and thought he was out. She described the scalpel 'going through X's chest like it was butter'. She said given the way Sherlock was moving forward and the scalpel was pointed at Culverton's chest, he definitely had enough momentum and that thing was sharp enough that yes, it could have been driven into his heart. Her partner survived, had a collapsed lung but it was obviously horrifying all around. She said a sibling of the patient they were transporting was riding along, and the ambulance had to pull over so the driver could restrain the sibling. Apparently he was beating the crap out of his brother, and was not high himself. 

Regardless whether this is meant to be realistic or not, she said that John was supposed to have just watched Sherlock blown Magnussen's braisn out. And now he looked to be repeating that pattern by plunging a scalpel into the chest of the next baddie, who may have even been innocent from John's perspective.

screen shot

And not only that, but he is watching Sherlock throw his life away (drugs, and now potentially going to jail again) very shortly after his wife gave her life so Sherlock could have his. She mentioned John would not see Sherlock as high and vulnerable at that point, he would have seen him as throwing away everything Mary gave him and potentially murdering again, in a pattern, about to turn into a serial killer himself. She felt John's reaction was not overboard, and I was surprised she felt this way as a medical professional; then she stated it was a completely human reactiongiven the context. I haven't had her experience, I've never had to deal with it. But where I felt before that this scene was off the hook abusive and unforgivable, I now see a bit differently due to her insight. It doesn't make teh curb stomping of Sherlock or John's abusive tendencies acceptable, and it also doesn't excuse Sherlock's demonstrations of attempted murder/assault acceptable. 

Just thought I would share!

 
Posted by besleybean
January 12, 2017 6:37 am
#165

Hey, Culverton got off lightly.  CAM wasn't so lucky!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 
Posted by Schmiezi
January 12, 2017 6:44 am
#166

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts and knowledge. Great posts, both of you!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 
Posted by Kae Em
January 12, 2017 7:08 am
#167

Thank you Preceja for your post, I coulnd't agree more. And thank you WhoIWantToBe for sharing your friend's Point of view, a very interesting insight.

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 8:22 am
#168

Ichneumon wrote:

I find it interesting how it is always Sherlock John looses control with (Billy excluded) and always in a situation where Sherlock (or Billy) is not able or willing to fight back.

Do we see John physically attack Magnussen, the man who placed him in a bonfire, threatens his wife and taunts him? No.
Do we see him attack Mary, when he finds out she shot his friend and lied to him all the time?
Do we see him attack Vivian Norwood, the woman who shot his wife?
Do we see him attack Culverton in the end, the man who tried to kill his friend?
Moriarty?
Mycroft in TRF, when John believed he was responsible for giving Moriarty information to destroy Sherlock?
 

THIS.
He only chooses weak, compromised targets. Mostly Sherlock, because it is certain that he will not hit back.
But he never lays a finger on actual perpetrators of these crimes.... you know, these people could RETALIATE.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 8:25 am
#169

Dumai wrote:

.... its so strange that he somehow wants Sherlock to help him when John himself cant even apologize.

Thank you, its very true.
I might add that next to his inability to apologise, he also cannot say "thank you.".
Sherlock shot CAM to keep him and Mary safe - and was willing to go to death mission to atone for that. And did we hear any thanks from John for Sherlock´s self-sacrifice? Not a word.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 8:40 am
#170

WhoIWantToBe wrote:

Regardless whether this is meant to be realistic or not, she said that John was supposed to have just watched Sherlock blown Magnussen's brains out. And now he looked to be repeating that pattern by plunging a scalpel into the chest of the next baddie, who may have even been innocent from John's perspective.

And not only that, but he is watching Sherlock throw his life away (drugs, and now potentially going to jail again) very shortly after his wife gave her life so Sherlock could have his. She mentioned John would not see Sherlock as high and vulnerable at that point, he would have seen him as throwing away everything Mary gave him and potentially murdering again, in a pattern, about to turn into a serial killer himself. She felt John's reaction was not overboard, and I was surprised she felt this way as a medical professional; then she stated it was a completely human reactiongiven the context. I haven't had her experience, I've never had to deal with it. But where I felt before that this scene was off the hook abusive and unforgivable, I now see a bit differently due to her insight. It doesn't make the curb stomping of Sherlock or John's abusive tendencies acceptable, and it also doesn't excuse Sherlock's demonstrations of attempted murder/assault acceptable. 

Very nice post, thank you.

Still, I have a bit of an issue with pointing out that Sherlock has a pattern in murdering people and citing CAM´s murder as an example of that.

As we all saw in HLV, Sherlock murdered CAM for the sake of John´s and Mary´s safety. To keep that "sacred vow" which John uses as a pretext to blame him for his misery in TST. CAM was only dangerous with regard to Watsons, he had nothing on Sherlock to blackmail him with. Stealing Mycroft´s notebook would never hurt him - Mycroft would never make that thing public, because this would unveil his own gross negligence in keeping state secrets safe.

So Shelock keeps his vow and accepts that the punishment for this would most likely be his death.... and John suddenly uses this as an example of Sherlock´s insanity? (The way he spoke about this deed with Lestrade seemed to imply that - and John sounds as if Sherlock shot CAM to his head randomly, as if he never heard CAM threatening Mary, as if he was never flicked into the face by CAM, as if CAM never threatened to have both him and Sherlock arrested....)

John was there, he knows what motivated Sherlock to shoot CAM. He heard that speech about how he is Sherlock´s "damsel in distress"...

John profited from CAM´s murder the most. It brought him family and safety from harm while for Sherlock it was practically a self-sacrifice of his life.

What leg to stand has John to even think such things about Sherlock?

Last edited by nakahara (January 12, 2017 9:19 am)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by nakahara
January 12, 2017 9:06 am
#171

Preceja wrote:

Lets imagine:

John is hiding from Sherlock, he knows that it is not a good idea to meet him. He is grieving, unable to take care of his daughter, unable to sleep, hardly able to work, 
But he is forced to meet Sherlock, who is on drugs, looks terrible and asks for help. John remembers the past, all the tricks, lies ,manipulations by which Sherlock got him where he wanted. He does not believe him. Not any more. Last time he trusted him and lost his wife. Is it another dirty trick to reconciliate them like  in  the underground?  Not now, after all that. But it is hard to resist Mrs. Hudson and Mary (i.e. his subconscious) thinks it is at least worth to try.  So he goes with Sherlock. Molly confirms that Sherlock is destroying himself quite efficiently. How far is Sherlock able to go to manipulate  John? With all the drugs it must be pleasure for him, so he can expect anything. Or it is not a trick, who knows with Sherlock.
Sherlock is not willing to share any information, as usually, so John has no idea in what he participates. As many times before must trust Sherlock but  he does not any more. And what happens looks  weird.
Later in the hospital Sherlock seems to be sane and  up to something and what CS says.. everything reminds John good old times when they were working on cases together, he starts enjoying it and for the first time after Mary's death he feels a bit better, not just thinking about her, he starts to believe that maybe , sometimes later, much later,his grief can weaken.
But then, suddenly , what started to be so promising occured to be just a drug fantasy. Sherlock does not recognize the woman who was supposed to give him information about CS, so what are they doing there? What is real? CS is disgusting but it is not a crime. It is  another Sherlock's lie or drug phantasmagoria, does not matter what? Just at the moment John started to see hope . There is no hope , Mary is dead , nothing will ever change, why he agreed to join this nonsense?
Sherlock has a scalpel and starts to behave mad, nervous and agresive, John tries to calm him down it does not work. When Sherlock attacs CS, John must stop him. It is surprisingly easy. Either John is really angry or Sherlock weak. Or both. But what, it was his choise to use drugs and destroy himself. Does he think that John would feel sorry for his heath conditions that is only the result of this? 
The slap was doctor thing,just to wake up Sherlock, to make him realize where he is and what he is doing. But there was something very satisfying in it. It opened something in John that he was suppressing since Mary's death. What game is Sherlock playing now, how does he dare? (Punch) John is not sure, he is not sure of anything but that he does not want to play any games any more. Not with Sherlock. Is it a game, a bloody game? (Punch)He started to trust him and what is the end? He gave him hope and took it from him again (Punch). 
Last time he trusted him  Mary died (Kick) He told he would protect her (Kick) He promised (Kick) John was her husband , he was supposed to protect her but Sherlock was so confident (Kick) John believed him that he would protect Mary better then him(Kick) And Mary died (Kick) Because of this stupid overconfident....."Yes, you killed her"

If you believe John hates Sherlock like that, then there´s no reason to call their relationship friendship. This is a description of a hateful enmity.

Also, if John had such a low confidence in Sherlock´s abilities, how come "John believed that Sherlock would protect Mary better than him"?

Preceja wrote:

  So is it out of character? Is it really so impossible to understand this? Not to approve just understand that it can happen? That under certain circumstances it can happen to anybody even in real life? Are you 100% sure that you would never ever do anything like it? I do not think that most people can say that. 

To me the scene only works because I don´t think John was rational at all when he attacked Sherlock. I don´t believe he really enumerated the reasons he hates Sherlock for in his head like that.
I believe that when he was subduing Sherlock and trying to snap him out of hysteria, he was suddenly triggered into an irrational, animal kind of rage by that act and was uncontrollable for a while. It happens in RL sometimes that people (especially those who find themselves under the prolonged stress and who are used to "fight or flight" response on impulses, because of their life-experiences), although they are normally benign, can be pushed into such kind of amok. And while being at it, they are absolutely beyond control and do not even feel pain as a result. All it takes that your hypothalamus is stimulated in a certain manner. There is even a medical explanation of these processes:

http://flipper.diff.org/apprulesitems/items/5920

It is therefore plausible that a stressful environmental conditions or stimuli can activate part of the lymbic system. This activation can lead, as described, at a trance-like state of rage via hypothalamus/amygdala-sympathetic nervous system. Thanks to potent opiate-like effects of the enkephalins, in this state nothing can give rise to pain feelings, just as it is said to be happened to Berserkers, as described in Norse literature.

I believe that´s what happened here. When he was attacking Sherlock, John wasn´t Sherlock´s friend or a doctor for a while, he was a raging animal attacking its target.

No other explanation (like - John was in pain or John needed to have a vent for his feelings) works for me, I´m afraid.

John´s cruelty in the situation lies in a fact that when he snapped of his berserker state, he was still unable to let go of his grudge and accussed Sherlock of Mary´s murder, willingly hurting him some more.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 
Posted by Vhanja
January 12, 2017 10:43 am
#172

Thank you, Prejeca and WhoIWantToBe for some very interesting thoughts and reflections.

I think it's clear that John lost control, seeing as he had to be restrained (every other instance of violence that he has used has been very carefully controlled and measured). So I think it's sort of a combination of everything mentioned here. Years of anger and frustration have been pent up and John is now allowing it to be released through the trauma of grief. And it became sort of an uncontrollable vent/catharsis.

And, yes, as Martin said - early in TLD, John does hate Sherlock. 

http://sherlocksbestfriend-john.tumblr.com/post/155754441681/because-you-know-sherlock-has-always-pissed-john

Last edited by Vhanja (January 12, 2017 10:52 am)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 
Posted by Dumai
January 12, 2017 5:29 pm
#173

Those are indeed very interesting thoughts about it... I really hope that they are going to fix this in the next episode. If it is (hopefully not) the last episode ever there shouldnt be an end without a touchy scene where John manages to apologize and saying "thank you" to Sherlock.

 
Posted by besleybean
January 12, 2017 5:30 pm
#174

Hopefully not now.

Sorry, cross posting!

Last edited by besleybean (January 12, 2017 6:01 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 9:15 pm
#175

nakahara wrote:

Also, if John had such a low confidence in Sherlock´s abilities, how come "John believed that Sherlock would protect Mary better than him"?

The point is that John had high confidence persuaded by Sherlock's confidence. And Mary died what he sees as betrayal of Sherlock's vow. He will not, later , but time or, in John's case, action is needed.

nakahara wrote:

 To me the scene only works because I don´t think John was rational at all when he attacked Sherlock. I don´t believe he really enumerated the reasons he hates Sherlock for in his head like that. 

Yes that is also the point. He is not rational. After such tragedy nobody can be rational if he is not a psychopat. He does not enumerate reasons but how do you want write down feelings and endles despair.
Yes, we are finally getting somewhere. Only you want separate cause and result. Why? Nobody does this without cause. 

nakahara wrote:

John´s cruelty in the situation lies in a fact that when he snapped of his berserker state, he was still unable to let go of his grudge and accussed Sherlock of Mary´s murder, willingly hurting him some more.

Sherlock accused himself.. Why do you expect from irrational person in such state who only hears what  he believes in, too, to do anything else then agree?

Last edited by Preceja (January 12, 2017 9:16 pm)

 
Posted by Vhanja
January 12, 2017 9:20 pm
#176

True. Martin did say that John was not in a state where he would be able to hear or take in this being more nuanced than "It's Sherlock's fault". Particular not to face his own guilt. So instead he tossed everything - the projection of his own guilt, the anger of previous actions from Sherlock, Sherlock's "fault" in Mary dying, and the grief of losing her - into the bag "It's all Sherlock's fault".

Of course, that's neither right nor rational. But it is what iti s.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 12, 2017 9:21 pm)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 
Posted by Preceja
January 12, 2017 9:22 pm
#177

WholWantToBe - very interesting. The scalpel seemed to be a bit funny thing, not much suitable for the scene. I had no idea that it is so easy to kill with it. It is not funny any more at all. 
John as a doctor had to know how dangerous it can be and believed that Sherlock's attack was real , uff. It gives a new perspective to whole this. I am going to rewatch it with this on mind. Thanks.

 
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh
January 12, 2017 9:48 pm
#178

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me. 

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down. 

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see 

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more. 

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true). 



Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

People are acting like real beatings never happen in real life. Phantom, I think you get it-- and I do too, from first-hand experience. 
 

 
Posted by besleybean
January 12, 2017 9:49 pm
#179

When John is speaking to Greg, he seems ashamed of how hard he hit Sherlock.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 
Posted by Vhanja
January 12, 2017 9:49 pm
#180

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

People are acting like real beatings never happen in real life. Phantom, I think you get it-- and I do too, from first-hand experience. 
 

I could just as easily, and just as unfairly, say that people act as if mental and emotional manipulations never happen in real life. I am also talking from first-hand experience.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 


Page:  Next »

 
Main page
Login
Desktop format