This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me. 

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down. 

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see 

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more. 

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true). 



Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

The show has so few episodes and it used to be so involved in showing casework and is now showing nonsense about Mary and the fallout from their including her in their lives, they don't have time to give us anything of substance about the backstories of any of the characters. I think what you wrote is quite plausible, because I don't know that anyone gets to be like Sherlock without some really dramatic stuff having happened to them in their past.
 

The underground scene in HLV. And perhaps also the drugging scene in HoB.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 11, 2017 2:43 pm)

ancientsgate wrote:

Prisons are full of such people. In real life, that's where John would be. In the US, Sherlock wouldn't even have to press charges in an attack like that, the police would have grounds to arrest John for what he did.  All of this "I forgive you, you cock of an arsehole" is one thing, but they could talk about it over a speaker phone through some plate glass at the local jail.
 

And that is why I keep saying that people shouldn't take this show too seriously. It's TV drama. It's just the same as showing the only physical and mental consequence of Sherlock's torture in Serbia is a two-seconds wince when he's at the barber. It's just as unrealistic. But I don't dwell on it - it's TV. It shouldn't be taken as if what happens there is the same as if it had happened in real life.

ancientsgate wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

........So it seems that John wasn't really ok with it, he just kept it in. Until something so traumatic happened that he finally allowed himself to let it all out. Unfortunately, by then the emotions and the trauma was so extreme that the outlet became venomous and violent. 

Prisons are full of such people. In real life, that's where John would be. In the US, Sherlock wouldn't even have to press charges in an attack like that, the police would have grounds to arrest John for what he did.  All of this "I forgive you, you cock of an arsehole" is one thing, but they could talk about it over a speaker phone through some plate glass at the local jail.
 

But it is crazy . If there was no serious damage done (and Sherlock was in hospital mainly due to drugs not due to injuries from John) and the hurt person does not want accuse the other, why to do it? But from our point of view US has mady really ridiculous trials that in Europe could not even get to a judge.

Vhanja wrote:

     and that is why I keep saying that people shouldn't take this show too seriously. It's TV drama. It's just the same as showing the only physical and mental consequence of Sherlock's torture in Serbia is a two-seconds wince when he's at the barber. It's just as unrealistic. But I don't dwell on it - it's TV. It shouldn't be taken as if what happens there is the same as if it had happened in real life.

Oh, honey, we all know it's just a TV show.  Speaking only for myself, I'm not stupid, so I know it's not real life, there is no one like Sherlock in the world and never has been. But...  they took these beloved characters and stuck them in modern-day London, stuck them in 221b like real people with a real Mrs. Hudson, made them dress like real people, use hair product like real people, gave John a real job like a real person, I mean, aren't we supposed to believe that they COULD be real people? The fine art of storytelling would say so, unless something is labeled as fantasy or sci-fi, which this isn't.

My fandom friends tell me that I suck at hand-waving, and I admit it, I do. Seeing characters I care about not act (and react) like real people drives me crazy.  Which is why I think that after this Sunday, I'll be done with this show. Too bad, a sad way for me to end with it. We'll see, but whatever the writers do with the next ep, they better make it good (and believable) or I'm outta there.
 

ancientsgate wrote:

Preceja wrote:

nakahara - drama queen -  it is a foreign language to me so I may not recognize the subtle differences but the scene seemed to me not like an accusation of Sherlock  but as a reminder of his strong points which are not in long thinking about the problem in a quiet place but ability to solve problems under stress. So I understood it more like support from John's side . But as I say, I might be wrong . 

Calling someone a drama queen is never a compliment. DQs are flamboyantly over the top, putting on a big show about everything and always making dramatic mountains out of unimportant molehills. They are intolerable to be around.
 

I have to disagree here.  Context is everything!  And for some people things like "drama queen" "cock" and other seemingly derogatory names can be part of affectionate teasing.  It's not for everyone no, but it is for some!  I'm sure you'd be horrified at the times I've called my husband a black hearted bastard or a massive dick, but in context this was normal banter between us. 

In the hospital when John calls Sherlock a cock I see it as him relaxing a bit when he realizes Sherlock is ok and did have a plan.  He could've said "you clever bastard" and it would've meant the same thing.

John and Sherlock are both deeply flawed men who tend to try and ignore their emotions.  Because of this they have done horrible things to people they love.  This does not make them monsters, it makes them human and, even when they're wrong, I will defend both of their humanity to the end of days.
 

Last edited by tonnaree (January 11, 2017 4:12 pm)

Ichneumon wrote:

I find it interesting how it is always Sherlock John looses control with (Billy excluded) and always in a situation where Sherlock (or Billy) is not able or willing to fight back. 

Sherlock not only never wanted to fight John back - he also kept denying any fight, if possible (like in TBB - twice), and kept avoiding to be seem by John, when he had no other option but the fight. In SIB he at least did call "vatican cameos", and made John look away, and when he wanted to throw an american agent through the window, John was sent to take care of mrs Hudson.
Shooting CAM was the (probably) only act of violence, ever committed by Sherlock before John's eyes, and it was committed to protect John, and his happiness.

Any ideas, how to explain it?

John could simply have restrained Sherlock...but Sherlock knew he had to let John get some of that violence out.

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me. 

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down. 

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see 

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more. 

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true). 



Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

I have to agree, that there was something awfully familiar about this scene.  I found it even more so in the scene in TEH - that passive acceptance, the person not even defending themselves because they know the abuser has to get it out of their system.

But I don't think that's what any of them were trying to portray.  The fact that they did portray it so accurately - looking on the bright side, I like to think that maybe none of them have been in that situation, so didn't realise exactly what they were showing! 
 

Rache wrote:

I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised at the seriousness of this discussion. I have been following all pages in this thread. Here's what I think:

While I think it is totally NOT ok in real life to beat someone (and especially your best friend) up like this, I have no problem whatsoever with it in the show.
For me it works in the show, it works for the drama and by all means it works for Sherlock and John.
That's it.

Very well put. I do think that this is sometimes taken a bit too seriously, and too much real life is put into it.