nakahara wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I would say they are quite bully, the both of them, if you want to use that term. Mental and emotional manipulation can be just as damaging and hurtful as physical violence.

Yes, mental manipulation can be very damaging - but in this particular case it wasn´t damaging to John, in my opinion.
While John´s violence actually hurt Sherlock...
 

And just as John seems to easily forgive Sherlock for his manipulations, Sherlock seem to just as easily forgive John.

Vhanja wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I would say they are quite bully, the both of them, if you want to use that term. Mental and emotional manipulation can be just as damaging and hurtful as physical violence.

Yes, mental manipulation can be very damaging - but in this particular case it wasn´t damaging to John, in my opinion.
While John´s violence actually hurt Sherlock...
 

And just as John seems to easily forgive Sherlock for his manipulations, Sherlock seem to just as easily forgive John.

What I especially do not like in these discussions is that if John forgives Sherlock his manipulations, it is OK, as it is Sherlock, he is always like this, we must accept it. But when Sherlock forgives John, he is still poor Sherlock, victim of abuse. 
 

Last edited by Preceja (January 11, 2017 12:19 pm)

Preceja wrote:

 Yes Sherlock wanted reconciliation which was John not prepared or willing to give at the time so he forced him to do it under death stress.
 

Maybe that´s why we can´t agree on that scene. I believed John wanted to achieve reconcilliation just as much, but as the wronged party, he was unsure how to do that without "loosing face".
When he was wandering to Baker Street in TEH (only to be kidnapped by CAM´s thughs), he probably wanted to make peace with Sherlock...
Also, his words in that moment when he believed they will die: "You were the best and wisest man...." unveiled that he still regards Sherlock highly and does not actually hate him, IMHO.

Vhanja wrote:

Preceja wrote:

What I especially do not like in these discussions is that if John forgives Sherlock his manipulations, it is OK, as it is Sherlock, he is always like this, we must accept it. But when Sherlock forgives John, he is still poor Sherlock, victim of abuse. 
 

My thougths exactly. There is a double standard going, where Sherlock is excused and forgiven much more easily than John.

There is no double standard - various fans are pretty consistent in their likes or dislikes.
People who abhored Sherlock´s abuse would abhor it no matter if Sherlock forgave it or not.
People who regarded John as victim of Sherlock´s manipulation would regard is as such even after John forgave it.
People who loved Mary would love her regardless of her shooting Sherlock or her criminal past.
Etc.
 

nakahara wrote:

. I believed John wanted to achieve reconcilliation just as much, but as the wronged party, he was unsure how to do that without "loosing face".
.

It can make difference. I will rewatch the scene with this idea  on mind and will see if it helps. Because now it is something I must skip in the episode, I really dislike it.  

I have to agree that I find the underground scene in HLV almost just as horrifying and unsettling as the beating scene. I think the two actions are just about equally as bad, only in slightly different ways.

Having that said, we might have to change the view of "John seemed alright with it, and therefore so are we." Because as I understand it from Martin, John's anger towards Sherlock in TST and TLD was a culmination of all the anger and wrong-doings in the past, with Mary's death as the catalysator, if you wish.

So it seems that John wasn't really ok with it, he just kept it in. Until something so traumatic happened that he finally allowed himself to let it all out. Unfortunately, by then the emotions and the trauma was so extreme that the outlet became vemonous and violent. 

nakahara wrote:

Well, when I compare both scenes, I still can´t see how Sherlock´s behaviour was worse than John´s.

First the motivations: Sherlock "selfishly" wanted reconciliation.
I simply can´t see how reconciling with Sherlock hurt John. John seemed none the worse for wear after reconciling. Actually, I think, it´s what he secretly wished for too. I don´t think holding a grudge for much longer would benefit him.
On the other hand, John needed to beat Sherlock in the morgue to reach "catharsis".
In my opinion, catharsis like this would only benefit John and so, according to same logic we applied to Sherlock earlier, this was a "selfish" act too.
After John´s "catharsis", Sherlock ended as the bloody heap on the floor and needed a medical help right away. That all after being in a weakened state already.
In short, "selfishly forcing somebody to forgive" is not as severe in my book as "beating somebody to a pulp so that you can feel better about your miserable life".

That leads me to...

Physical and mental repercussions of both action:
While being subjected to that horrible "mental violence", John was healthy and in the clear state of mind. The "mental violence" lead to exactly 1:30 minute of acute mental anguish, replaced by healthy laughter and amusement.
No hospital was needed, no physical harm came to John, the mental anguish was all but forgotten.
The bomb was disfunctional (thanks to Sherlock´s action), so no actual threat of death was there for John.
Also, Sherlock was not the one who installed the bomb there, so he was not the main factor in endangering John´s life with it earlier.
While being subjected to vicious beating from John´s side, Sherlock was already weakened and his mental state during the scene was nearing hysteria.
Above, you forgave John´s behaviour, because he was acting "in a stress, full of emotions". Sherlock´s mental state during the morgue scene was much, much worse... doesn´t that count too?
After being massacred by John, Sherlock was bleeding, unable to stand, had a split above his eye, hematoma in the eye itself, maybe some cracked ribs... and then "the emotional John" cold-blodedly accused him of killing his wife, that all despite the fact that he knew the real perpetrator, Vivian Norbury and didn´t care about her at all.
That cruel remark prolonged the mental anguish Sherlock was already in to hours, which, combined with his sorry physical state, lead to an acute suffering and pain.
The wounds inflicted by John were real and lead to the danger that Sherlock´s weak state would deterriorate beyond any help.

And also:

I believe that Sherlock was full of emotions in that TEH scene too. He sincerely wished for reconcilliation. Whatever method he used to reach that reconcilliation, I still see his motive for acting that way as benign.
John beat Sherlock because he lost control over the situation, so there was no motive for beating him beforehand, but after that deed was done, he used it to make Sherlock suffer with his cruel and unjust accusation. This did not elevate his own grief in the long run, but made even the life of somebody elese miserable beyond measure - and that in the situation, when the other party was already blaming itself for John´s pain.

Great well thought out post, thank you for taking the time to write it. But I can say it in just  few words:  Sherlock and John are both nuts, something we already knew, but now they're both certifiable. What a sad thing for the writers to have presented to the fans, expecting us to swallow that nonsense whole. Sir ACD, whom both writers have openly expressed admiration for, must be rolling in his grave.

 

I think you might be more dismayed by it then what Sherlock is himself. 

I did dread another round of John bashing after S4, and I was unfortunately right. (And, no, criticizing his violent behavior is not bashing - posting everything and anything he did to twist into something horrible is).

Preceja wrote:

nakahara - drama queen -  it is a foreign language to me so I may not recognize the subtle differences but the scene seemed to me not like an accusation of Sherlock  but as a reminder of his strong points which are not in long thinking about the problem in a quiet place but ability to solve problems under stress. So I understood it more like support from John's side . But as I say, I might be wrong . 

Calling someone a drama queen is never a compliment. DQs are flamboyantly over the top, putting on a big show about everything and always making dramatic mountains out of unimportant molehills. They are intolerable to be around.
 

Last edited by ancientsgate (January 11, 2017 3:00 pm)

Preceja wrote:

Yes, and it is very similar what John said in the underground when Sherlock exposed him extreme stress which happend here too, but this was different, John realized that Sherlock might have died. 
And Sherlocks takes it almost as appraisal here. Which partly was from John's side and partly relief. 
Sometimes the more important than what we are saying is how we are saying it. 

I really like this scene, it seems to me that Sherlock finally realized that he wants to accept John as he is, too .It is not exactly it but I do not know how to decribe it better  but there is something in Sherlock's behavious slightly changed that makes his manipulations acceptable. 

 

Yeah, I agree. It's actually the most relaxed banter the two of them have had all sesaon (before talking about cake).