Vey good post, Whisky, I really like your thoughts. And I think John finally showing some vulnerability, being open, raw and grieving, in front of Sherlock, is also a sign of trust. Of finally letting his guard down. 

Also, I just want to add that Sherlock has a horrible lack of self-preservation (and some self-esteem issues).

Last edited by Vhanja (January 9, 2017 10:37 am)

I agree with Whisky. 

I think that main difference  here is in how we see Sherlock in this scene.  Those who see him week , ill, victim, consider it too violent. 

But John never saw Sherlock as  the  weaker of they two. And does not believe too much that his state is not just  another game despite of what did Molly say. Does not believe that Sherlock is not able to defend from him. I do not think he  wants to hurt him intentionally, too, he just does not care which is exactly what is Sherlock doing to him. 

I do not think it is right to kick to a person, but I understand it. Sometimes is more efficient, pleasant and clears relationship better to use fists then ignore each other or use long speaches/letters full of words that should  have never been told.

Anybody can be a victim but must allow the abuser to make him into victim and I do not think this is the case, also John is not abuser. They just need each other to find the better in them and get the worse under control. 

As for Sherlock being a stronger, bigger man - the fact is that John did manage to overpower him in ASiB, when Sherlock was both sober, healthy and alert. So I am not sure if Sherlock really is the strongest one of the two.

nakahara - yeah, that was the one I read yesterday. I think that's an example of reading too much into it. 

I mean that it is the way John sees it. Anyway, it is always as Sherlock wants, not John (or at least usually) . Sherlock makes John do whatever and never asks if he agrees. John accepts it and we , too, bacause it is Sherlock. But it does not mean it is right.

Going back to abusers. Is not it more like that abused woman has finally enough and smashes abusers head with frypan giving all the frustration and emotions that she was hiding for years to it? Not right but understandable.

 This is not so cruel and also the relationship is not so extreme but as well as John need to lower his physical violence, Sherlock should deal with his need for mental manipulation.

Preceja wrote:

Going back to abusers. Is not it more like that abused woman has finally enough and smashes abusers head with frypan giving all the frustration and emotions that she was hiding for years to it? Not right but understandable.

Organising John´s and Mary´s wedding in TSOT.
Removing Magnussen out of their path in HLV, being shot and forgiving it with no repercussions for Mary.
Being there for them during whole TST, allowing them to be at Baker Street whole of the time, protecting John while AJ was shooting at them....

Which one of these Sherlock´s acts directly preceding TLD would you call abuse from Sherlock´s side? Which one of them lead to him deserving such vicious hatred from John?

Yes, long time ago, Sherlock poisoned John in THOB. Then he lied to him in TRF, but only in an effort to save John´s life.

But since then he already cleaned up his act and proved many times how important John is to him, being self-sacrificing and self-effacing....

And suddenly he is the abuser?
 

I agree with all that (including that we're meant to get over it!).  I'm hoping/guessing that TFP will be the episode where John "redeems" himself.

It is not that it happened at the beginning and suddenly Sherlock has changed. He can be very generous and then ignorant next minute all the time. 

He killed CAM for Mary but also druged the whole family uncluding pregnant Mary and took John to CAM without any notice

During TST there were both moments . He helped and he was rude and ignorant to John's feelings. I think this(if longterm)  may destroy any relationship easier then few punches.
So John is no villain and Sherlock is not a victim at least not John's victim as John would never do that and Sherlock would never allow it.
Maybe he is a victim of Euros but we will see next week.
 

 

Preceja wrote:

It is not that it happened at the beginning and suddenly Sherlock has changed. He can be very generous and then ignorant next minute all the time. 

In my opinion he has changed enormously. Sherlock of S1 and S2 would never be caught organising anyone´s marriage or giving deeply sympathetic, heartfelt speeches we had heard during TLD...

Preceja wrote:

He killed CAM for Mary but also druged the whole family uncluding pregnant Mary and took John to CAM without any notice

In the same episode Mary shot Sherlock, yet was forgiven in the very next scene, without repercussions. Drugging is much less serious a delict, so why hold a grudge against Sherlock if Mary was completely redeemed?

Preceja wrote:

 During TST there were both moments . He helped and he was rude and ignorant to John's feelings. I think this(if longterm)  may destroy any relationship easier then few punches.

And John was inconsiderate of his feelings in turn (in HLV "who would Sherlock bother protecting", in TSOT "you are a drama queen!", in TST "don´t you dare! you are the last I would accept help from"). Yet nobody was punching John for it - which is quite right, since ignorance of someone´s feelings really is no reason for violence.

Not if the "few punches" start evolving into a pattern.....

Also, as some fans pointed out, Molly was largely seen as abusive after she slapped Sherlock in HLV. And John should be left off the hook for punching and kicking him until he bled?

Preceja wrote:

So John is no villain and Sherlock is not a victim at least not John's victim as John would never do that and Sherlock would never allow it.
 

But John actually did it? And not for the first time?

I agree, John was hurting so much he was in danger to die (at his own hands, maybe even). Sherlock was aware. And I don't know how to phrase this, but maybe he was even glad John was finally letting go, letting himself feel all the pain, because Sherlock knew that was the way out for him. Yes, it was gross, and brutal, and dangerous (he could really have hurt Sherlock in a permanent way). But I think John wasn't thinking, he was just feeling, and loosing touch to everything else.

And if we go really far, and think of the affection between the two, maybe Sherlock was okay with feeling the pain John felt. Just in a different way. Like sharing it to ease it. I could never forgive such an assault. Except I'd see true regret. John's breakdown shows me that he now has let out the anger, but is now eaten by guilt.

It is the stages of grief again. The denial, the anger, the breakdown, the grief, the acceptance... it is all there. Very classic. How violent the anger is, how deep the grief... it's something I would never want to judge. Like we established in another thread, grief isn't rational. John isn't rational when he beats Sherlock up, I am sure of that at least.

We always look at Sherlock's development. But look at John's. He is changing, too. And not smoothly. He is also loosing his footing, again and again, but in different ways.

From own experience, I would always say that keeping your anger to yourself does at least as much harm as letting it out (maybe doing others harm). John doesn't beat Molly up, or Mrs. Hudson, or Mycroft, or the secretary. He turns to Sherlock, because sometimes we (need to) hurt the ones the most we love the most.
I don't know how to phrase this better, it sounds wrong, but I don't mean abuse. I mean desperation.

Also calling something okay and understand something are two different things. I would never call violence okay. But I understand it can happen. We are all human, aren't we. We tend to look at the results, not to the cause. We do that all the time, don't we - just watch the news. It's like we judge people only by their actions, and never look deeper. It is not the same as excusing violence. It is seeing it for what it is. And that is exactly the wording what John and Sherlock use in the end.
 

Last edited by Whisky (January 9, 2017 1:27 pm)

Vhanja, I just feel that they are not really comparable.

(Sherlock does some things that are wrong or unacceptable, but I don't see him doing anything malicious to John.  I don't see any mental manipulation with the intent to abuse).

Last edited by Liberty (January 9, 2017 1:31 pm)