It was, I actually felt it like a punch to the gut

(even if doctors often have unreadable handwriting... I remember working at the hospital and us secretaries gathering to decipher notes) 

I would certainly like the movie to explore more of Kaeciliius, because he had a good potential as a villain and much of it was left un-explored. On the other hand, however, I think it would be harmful to the pace of the movie and too distracting: this is origin story and we need to concentrate on the protagonist. Nevertheless, I think there was quite a lot of interesting stuff going about Kaecilius and Ancient one: both ambiguous characters. From the very first scene of the movie, when Kaecilius shouts "hypocrite" when she is chasing him one has to wonder: it is not a usual word you would expect from a villain, wouldn't you? Later he talks about she who "betrayed" him and is questioning her motives. He is partially right, also: the Ancient one is certainly not a completely "positive" character.
In any case, I wouldn't mind Kaecilius coming back and I think it is possible he will indeed be back: after all, he hasn't got killed, but simply "absorbed" by Dormammu. I don't see why Dormammu couldn't send him back to Earth when the occasion comes.

Last edited by miriel68 (November 10, 2016 4:24 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

My problem with the movie, which has to do with what we talked about earlier on pacing, is that several of the points that were supposed to have an impact (The Ancient One using magic from Dormammu/The Ancient One is dying) didn't, because I hadn't had enough time with her.

Well it depends on how much time do you need to get invested in a character or may be how much personality they are able to express. I have seen all 3 Iron Man movies (I confess!) and I cannot really say I know anything about Gwyneth Paltrow character, even if she has a lot of screentime in these movies. On the other hand, you have 7 minutes of Judi Dench in "Shakespeare in love" and she is a splendid character as Elizabeth I. BC had just a couple of scenes in "Amazing Grace", but still made me cry when I was watching his death scene.
For me, Tilda Swinton was so mesmerising and full of personality from the first scene I saw her, that I did care for her and was saddened by her death. I was intrigued by her ambiguity and by the doubts that plagued her, which you could see clearly in the expression of her eyes in some scenes.

 

I think we couldn´t have a detailed becakstory on TAO because this would remove her allure and mystique to a great extent. Still, I found her nicely characterised in the short time we had with her. The way she personally served tea to Strange during their first meeting showed how humble and no-nonsense person she is, devoid of any haughtiness or pride, untouched by the demands of ego. Her teaching methods were sometimes a bit larky, but never malicious and she never deliberately hurt or tortured her pupils to demonstrate her power. Her death scene showed the wonderful, smiling acceptance of the inevitable from her side - when she touched Strange good-bye it was to give him encouragement to go on, but she never showed self-pity and this diminished the pain of her departure for him... all and all, she was portrayed as a beautiful personality.

I found it quite unfair when she was accussed of being a hypocrite by Kaecilius. I believe she didn´t mention the full extent of her powers to her pupils only because they would not be able to absorb all of that at once and their minds would be damaged by the reality behind it in a way similar to that of Kaecilius himself. The mystics of Middle East - sufis - teach that the mind of the pupil can reach full powers only through "steps" made of special states (Haal) and places (Maqaam) of your mind and that takes a lot of time and gradual "ripening" of your mind. The famous Persian mystic Jallal-ud-din Rumi issued the warning against the efforts of absorbing all mystic secrets at once:

If these secrets became naked in front of your eyes,
you would not remain, nor your chest, not your waist.
Wish to know them, but wish it with measure,
because one straw of grass won´t hold up the mountain.
And if the Sun which illuminates all of the world
came nearer, it would burn all to dust.
 

Last edited by nakahara (November 11, 2016 3:31 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

I have one criticism: Everyone talked about how the villain had a solid and good argument for his belief. But I saw a flaw in it immediately - he talked about eternal life. My first question was: But what quality of life? How will that eternal life be? No one addressed the issue to him directly, The Ancient One just mentioned it once in passing. To me, that was a glaring error when they try to portray a villain that had just chosen a different path (an idea I love, which is why I was disappointed with the weak logic).

This philosophy of Kaecilius once again reminded me of actual mystical principles found in the Middle East, namely the concept of "fanaa" (the annihilation of self to reach eternal life).

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baqa-wa-fana-sufi-term-signifying-subsistence-and-passing-away

The idea behind the concept is that once you completely blot out the last traces of your earthly ego, you become one with God and your consciousness changes and expands with God´s consciousness that is now your own. You thus enter your own "nonexistence" through unity with eternal being - and thus you reach "eternal subsistence" because you are now a part of something that never perishes.

In his ascetic struggle, the mystic of Iranian Sufism strives to abandon this world (donyā) before it leaves him and to slay his carnal soul (nafs) before it breathes its last, because he experiences physical existence—including the body, the senses, and the lower self—as existence alienated from God. In mystic vision on the other hand, he professes and actually realizes oneness of God (tawḥīd), the eternal and true reality, one without partners, beside whom the mystic’s temporal existence has no claim to reality and his self no right to selfhood. In realizing tawḥīd, the mystic has to pass away from any trace of individual self-consciousness so that his self is blotted out in actual non-existence and God alone exists and in truth subsists (al-fanāʾ fi’l-tawḥīd).

Still, the realisation of this idea by Kaecilius was physical rather than spiritual and therefore it was rather crude. Instead of the mind being changed, Kaecilius and his pupils were branded in the face by Dormamu´s sign and made his servants. They also retained their pain and memories and ego and were vulnerable because of this. I guess it´s because Dormamu wasn´t actually the God they were striving for....

Last edited by nakahara (November 11, 2016 9:19 pm)

Thank you, I have always found those pearls of eastern wisdom fascinating too.

I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as Man, to soar
With angels bless'd; but even from angelhood
I must pass on: all except God doth perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel-soul,
I shall become what no mind e'er conceived.
Oh, let me not exist! for Non-existence
Proclaims in organ tones,
To Him we shall return.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi

It's worth remembering that Inception was inspired by the Doctor Strange comics 

ukaunz wrote:

A new Doctor Strange "Easter Egg" has been revealed:

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/doctor-strange-director-reveals-the-actor-behind-villain-dormammu-164538277.html

I did think at the time I was watching the movie that Dormammu's voice sounded similar to Strange's/Benedict's.

Fun fact: I saw the film just this weekend. And believe me or not, but even in the dubbed German version I was in, I was wondering for a few seconds, too. Somehow I was strongly reminded of Smaug and The Necromancer/Sauron. :D
 

Oh, yes, I remember the episode, it was fantastic. And there is indeed a parallel to the Dormammu time loop. 

Sorry, I have no pics, but someone discovered that the cracks in Stephen's watch show the same pattern as the lines in the Eye of Agamotto. I love when films take care of such details. 

I've been telling my kids about this scene, they really want to watch Doctor Strange!