BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / let's discuss... dr Strange (spoilers)

**Posted by miriel68** November 2, 2016 8:07 pm

Right, I know we have another thread for dr Strange alraedy, but since it is for-all-Strange-things I thought it would be nice to have a separate thread only for discussion. I loved the film and I do feel there is much to talk about (which is not so usual when it comes to Marvel movies)I had my fears because in trailers some dialogue seemed rather cheesy, but to my relief in the film it all worked beautifully and the humour was not forces or trip (happened in second Avengers movie) So, I am totally Strange convert and I would like to launch the discussion with this quote I found in one of the (more) intelligent reviews: "In some ways Strange is, in his first MCU appearance, given to the kind of self-reflection and doubt that the A-list heroes have only managed to scrape together over multiple films": This is so true!

Last edited by miriel68 (November 3, 2016 8:09 am)

**Posted by ukaunz** November 2, 2016 9:14 pm

"In some ways Strange is, in his first MCU appearance, given to the kind of self-reflection and doubt that the A-list heroes have only managed to scrape together over multiple films."

It was a bit hard for me to read, in black

**Posted by SusiGo** November 2, 2016 9:40 pm

I love the spiritual elements of the film. This makes it something special and different from the other MCU films. Looking forward to see more his journey soon.

**Posted by ewige** November 3, 2016 5:47 am

Loved the visuals, but I think the spiritual journey was very rushed and, well, comic-verse-like because of them (apparently I expected something more like Seven Years in Tibet, lol). I liked other Avengers movies more because they haven't tried to be different, if that makes sense. I can also barely believe the Avengers Universe can integrate a sorcerer in any meaningful way. I mean, all that they can, he can do better but well, they've sorta integrated a god too...
So while I enjoyed separate aspects quite a lot, the overall impression wasn't particularly stellar. I don't think I'll watch it again.

**Posted by miriel68** November 3, 2016 8:21 am

ewige wrote:
Loved the visuals, but I think the spiritual journey was very rushed and, well, comic-verse-like because of them (apparently I expected something more like Seven Years in Tibet, lol)

I think it depends on what kind of films you can embrace. I am not much into Marvel films, although I have watched most (not all) of them. They are kind of silly and above all they are all about entertainment, so I do not expect depth and introspection. But I must say I became really, really bored with last entries, because they began to look all the same and predictable to me. The dialogues are strained, the jokes repetitive and the actors themselves seem not convinced that they truly want to put their hearts in it.

So yes, I was rather anxious about dr Strange and trailers made me even more anxious with their rather over the top bits "There is strenght to him" "but is he ready"? and so on.
But actually, IMO it worked out beautifully IMO. And the humour was a very important element in it, not just silly jokes like in Avengers Ultron (sorry don't remember the title exactly), but integral to the whole message/ and balancing two worlds, reminding us (viewers) that we have to enjoy it and understand / share some universal truths is is about, but not to take it too seriously (like the first Superman did, if I remember correctly - didn't see the second one)

**Posted by ewige** November 3, 2016 9:53 am

So you basically say I'm used to shallow movies and this is why I can't appreciate the depth of DrS? Lol. Ok, that was a good one
I liked other Avenger installments because they were exactly what they were expected to be, whereas DrS didn't quite manage the stretch between superhero action and spirituality. There's something off about the composition there - was it rushed, was the storytelling too obvious (not to say boring)? I can't quite put my finger on it.

**Posted by miriel68** November 3, 2016 10:07 am

ewige wrote:
So you basically say I'm used to shallow movies and this is why I can't appreciate the depth of DrS? Lol. Ok, that was a good one

Sorry, I was saying exactly the contrary, lol. Namely, that there are different kind of movies and Marvel are not really about psychological depths, so if you expect to find it there, you will be disappointed. DrS comes out as refreshingly intelligent, IMO, but it is still a comic-based movie and has not (and dosn't try to have) psychological insights of a Madame Bovary.

But yes, it is also a bit different from the series, probably because of the topic - after all they have to sell us pure MAGIC here - and may-be also because of BC.
I do agree that the structure is obvious (but what can you do? you can't escape the patttern of the guy-becoming-a-superhero-and-saving-the-world story) and after all, it is based on source material even if they, I believe (haven't read the comics) made some clever adjustments to it. So basically what sells it to me is Benedict somehow managing to be really human in all this silly stuff (cannot think about other character running the the NYC hospital in strange clothes and still looking believable, lol)

**Posted by gently69** November 3, 2016 10:42 am

SusiGo wrote:
I love the spiritual elements of the film. This makes it something special and different from the other MCU films. Looking forward to see more his journey soon.

I wonder how it will go with the "typical" super hero stuff of the Avengers.

**Posted by tonnaree** November 3, 2016 12:56 pm

As a fan of comics and comic book movies this was an excellent adaptation. Benedict suiting the part so well physically and character wise he nailed the arrogant surgeon brought down. Side note: During one part where Strange was being a right prat, my husband leans over and whispers to me, Benedict is good at asshole. LOL
But it's true! Ben gave us both the cruel arrogant rationalist but he also gave us a clear view of how broken and vulnerable he was when he lost his life's work.

As has been said before, the visuals were mind bending and well worth the 3D. The humor was perfection. Huge belly laughs, just what this sort of film needs.

My favorite supporting character would be a tie between Wong and that brilliant Cape!!!

**Posted by This Is The Phantom Lady** November 3, 2016 1:11 pm

I thought it was pretty awesome. I liked the comic book like scenes; There were scenes towards the end where he looked like a little action figure even, and considering this is an adaptation of a comic book I thought it was perfect!

I know it's a film and there's a limit to what you can do with your time, but I felt like it was a bit of a fast transition from "Ha, I don't need all of this, what ever you call this sh't" to "I've read every book in the library, I am it!" but then again... he's a smart guy and there was a time jump and all, plus his astral form read while he slept... so yeah, that halfed his learning time of course.

But I enjoyed in a way to see his journey, I thought they did that justice... how he went from top surgeon to practically homeless, having to be forced to eat his humble pie, and still being his own arrogant self about it. I think he's an interesting character like that.

And I'm in love with the cloak. There's apparently even a ship between it and Stephen now... Stroak I've seen it called...

**Posted by tonnaree** November 3, 2016 3:22 pm

"Stroak" I totally ship it!

Nice little review.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/movies/2016/11/benedict_cumberbatch_in_doctor_strange_reviewed.html

Last edited by tonnaree (November 3, 2016 3:24 pm)

**Posted by ewige** November 3, 2016 3:26 pm

Stroak? Lol
Better than anything I've come up with when driving to work today!

**Posted by Vhanja** November 5, 2016 1:42 am

Phantom, I remember you writing something about wathing a rerun of HLV after having seen this movie and overdosing on Ben. I ended up doing the same - went to see Dr. Strange tonight, and when I came home there was a rerun of ASiP on the telly. :D

Loved the movie! It was absolutely amazing. I had high expectations, and it lived up to every single one of them and then some. I will need some time to process this before I can bring something more intelligent to the table than just fangirling.

**Posted by miriel68** November 5, 2016 8:43 am

Well, I can relate, I treated myself to the second viewing of doctor Strange yesterday and liked it as much as before. It was nice to pay attention to some details I didn't notice the first time.One thing that is baffling me, is that almost every (exaggerating, but only slightly) review is reiterating the idea that "dr Strange is basically a variant of Tony Stark". Frankly, IMO opinion this is a typical example of what BC calls "lazy journalism". They are both arrogant, smart and have a goatee. Does it make them really similar?

**Posted by ukaunz** November 5, 2016 8:51 am

I can barely remember Iron Man, so I haven't got much to add, except to post this

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

**Posted by SolarSystem** November 5, 2016 9:19 am

To be fair, in my opinion there are indeed similarities between Tony Stark and Stephen Strange. (Which lies, of course, in the nature of the source material, so I don't really get why some critics seem to make such a fuss about it.)
But I really think that there is more to it than just both being arrogant, smart and having a goatee. They both are extremely self-centred and only really care about themselves and their career/money when we first meet them, and in both cases it's an accident that starts off their change of mind. In both cases their journey then begins in a foreign country. And then of course there are the small details: Strange's struggle with his cape or with learning how to open a portal indeed reminded me of the little problems Tony had when he designed his iron suit and basically destroyed his own laboratory along the way.

So I do indeed think that they do have a lot in common... but there are lots of differences as well. And I would never blame the creators of the Strange-movie for any of those similarities, because like I said: You already have it there in the source material.

Last edited by SolarSystem (November 5, 2016 9:20 am)

**Posted by ukaunz** November 5, 2016 9:34 am

Isn't Tony Stark meant to be a bit of a ladies' man? Stephen doesn't seem like a playboy or a Casanova, he hardly has time for Christine. Their relationship is obviously past its use-by date, he does still respect her for her intellect though.

Also: Stephen starts his journey with the words "Teach me". Does Tony Stark have some sort of mentor, or does he become a superhero on his own?

**Posted by SolarSystem** November 5, 2016 10:01 am

ukaunz wrote:
Also: Stephen starts his journey with the words "Teach me". Does Tony Stark have some sort of mentor, or does he become a superhero on his own?

Well, I'm not sure I remember it correctly, but there is a guy in that cave who is helping him to recover and basically to survive. It is possible that this guy is also opening Tony's eyes to the damage his weapons have done to lots and lots of people, but I'm not absolutely sure about that. But he is certainly not a mentor in the way that "The Ancient One" is to Strange. Nevertheless their journey's do bear some resemblance, but certainly not to the last tiny detail.

**Posted by miriel68** November 5, 2016 10:02 am

Solar, you are right of course about similarities, but I still have got an impression that they are very superficial ones. Stark is not really obsessed about money: he is billionaire and can do whatever he wants and money can buy. And when we first meet him he is constructing weapons and not really interested in other people, even if he hypocritially says that the weapons are a tool for maintaining peace. He is irresponsable, not treating his duties seriously, not following the rules and interested instead in going to casino and going to bed with every attractive female.
Strange is arrogant but he is arrogant about being best in his work as a doctor. He is saving lives and takes it very seriously, even if he also loves all the perks of the job (interviews, galas, nice appartment, fast car ecc.) and is an xxx with his collegues (still he has enough charme to be liked by them). And if he is devastated after the incident, it is not so much about loosing his money or even prestige, but about not being able to do what gives sense to his existance.
Stark has to redeem himself for the evil he has done. Strange, on the other hand, has to find another way to "save lives" and in doing so, to loose his "overinflated ego". There are two very different journeys, IMO.
Lol, if I were to indicate similarieties between Marvel heroes, I would say Strange - Thor share more connection than Strange - Stark.

Last edited by miriel68 (November 5, 2016 10:05 am)

**Posted by ukaunz** November 5, 2016 10:09 am

All good points, miriel (and thanks for changing your text colour btw)

Then again, at the start of the film Dr. Strange picks and chooses his cases according to how challenging they are, or how much prestige it will earn him as a surgeon, not necessarily to help people or save lives.

Last edited by ukaunz (November 5, 2016 10:11 am)