BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Possible "dark twists" in S4

**Posted by besleybean** September 21, 2016 7:31 pm

What would burn the heart out of Sherlock?
1. him inadvertently putting John in danger.
2. him inadvertently causing John's heartbreak.

EDIT: there is also the idea from SIP that the name used is 'Moriarty,...could just be a code name.
But then the 'Moriarty' we know...does use other agents.

Although none of this fits with what the team have said both about Mary and John's feelings for her...

Last edited by besleybean (September 21, 2016 7:44 pm)

**Posted by Rache** September 22, 2016 12:24 pm

What is the ultimate dark thing you can think of?
Sherlock being responsible for the death of John's child would be the darkest thing I can imagine... But as I can see no way for John, the audience or anyone else forgiving him that, it can't happen, can it?^^

**Posted by besleybean** September 22, 2016 3:56 pm

But one can inadvertently be responsible for something without meaning to be...what if he has to choose between saving John or the child?!

**Posted by Rache** September 22, 2016 4:04 pm

Yes, but I wouldn't define that as being responsible. The person who made Sherlock decide would be the responsible one. Although this scenario would be pretty dark, too.

**Posted by tonnaree** September 22, 2016 4:35 pm

I like dark.
Bring it on!

**Posted by SusiGo** September 22, 2016 4:48 pm

For me the darkest scenario (apart from Sherlock's or John's death) would be a permanent rift between them. Something apparently unforgivable.

**Posted by besleybean** September 22, 2016 4:50 pm

They've kind of done that on a short term basis...

**Posted by SusiGo** September 22, 2016 4:58 pm

Yes. But in TEH it took Sherlock … what was it? One day? … to get John's forgiveness. And it could be the other way round as well, John doing something unforgivable.
Btw, my answer was purely hypothetical, I did not see anything in Setlock to make me believe this will happen.

**Posted by besleybean** September 22, 2016 5:22 pm

Likewise with my wobble on Mary really, I'm still hoping they follow the more positive path I see.

**Posted by Liberty** September 22, 2016 5:53 pm

I don't think they would make Sherlock kill John permanently, or make a permanent rift between them. But I wouldn't rule out that they could do it temporarily. For instance, with John seemingly dead for a while, Sherlock apparently killing him, them becoming estranged. This could be part of a plan, to protect themselves or somebody else, which is only revealed later. It could even be a cliffhanger - judging from previous episodes (seeing Sherlock alive at the end of TRF) I don't think they'd do that, but they might want a very dark finale. But I think they would still leave a get out clause, a clue that it wasn't final.

The darkest thing ... I really don't think they'd do this, but I'm thinking back to ASIP and Sally Donovan implying that Sherlock might be a serial killer. The darkest twist would be making him actually evil, I think. But I don't think this would fit with what we've seen of his character, and I can't imagine it being part of Moftiss's vision. (Although again, they could do it temporarily, making Sherlock appear evil, making it seem as if we've been fooled all along - that would not be at odds with their writing, and would certainly be something Sherlock would be prepared to do if absolutely necessary).

**Posted by SusiGo** September 22, 2016 6:36 pm

Well, we had Sherlock shooting a man in the face. A bad man, granted. But still. And the smear campaign in TRF. So this would have to be very new indeed.

There is a pastiche called "The Last Sherlock Holmes Story" by Michael Dibdin which is the darkest thing I know. But I am sure Moftiss would never do that to us or Sherlock Holmes.

**Posted by Liberty** September 22, 2016 7:04 pm

No, I don't think so, but as you say, it was hinted at in TRF, with Moriarty appearing innocent, and Sherlock possibly inventing the cases (as Sally Donovan implied) and actually being the criminal himself. So I suppose that's a theme that has persisted through two series, even if it's a minor theme and quickly resolved. I do feel Magnussen is slightly different, in that although it's terrible and dark there is no attempted subterfuge there, at least as far as we know.

I would be open to something very much darker and protracted along these lines as long as Sherlock is eventually shown as the "goodie" he is! Now, that would be something which would test the relationship with John, as so far John has always managed to have faith in Sherlock ... it's never REALLY being tested and found wanting. That would be something new.

**Posted by kgreen20** September 22, 2016 8:28 pm

Lautrela wrote:
*nod* I fear that Mycroft will die. I mean, they said it would be dark, so...

Not unless Mark Gatiss has decided to leave the show, and I can't imagine he's decided to do that. As one of the producers, he has the right to decide whether to stay in the role of Mycroft or exit that role.

**Posted by besleybean** September 22, 2016 8:30 pm

Hope he doesn't depart!

**Posted by SusiGo** September 23, 2016 7:09 am

We know Mark loves the part of Mycroft but in the end I think his part as creator does matter more to him. Which is evidenced by the fact that he was not in the pilot. Not sure if they planned to introduce him later but the creation of the show came before his involvement as an actor. Therefore I am sure that if his and Steven's vision demanded the death of Mycroft, Mark would let him die. He is a professional after all.

**Posted by nakahara** September 23, 2016 10:17 am

Rache wrote:
What is the ultimate dark thing you can think of?
Sherlock being responsible for the death of John's child would be the darkest thing I can imagine... But as I can see no way for John, the audience or anyone else forgiving him that, it can't happen, can it?^^

I cease to see how John and Sherlock could remain friends if that happened.
Same with Sherlock turning evil - it would irreparably and ireedemably destroy the whole series, IMHO:

**Posted by tonnaree** September 23, 2016 11:58 am

There are actually some dark twists that I would welcome.

**Posted by SusiGo** September 23, 2016 3:05 pm

Just my personal opinion: I think the child does matter far less than we think. She will not be the focus of the show, not even an episode. And I really do not believe that anything like this would happen. Not least because there is no precedence for this in Canon, neither for a Watson child, nor for anything bad happening to them. At SDCC the baby was almost non-existant, nothing more but an afterthought in the panel.

AO3 · **Posted by GimmeCat** September 23, 2016 7:51 pm

Calling it now: Sherlock never saw Mary's baby bump before he was shot and fell into a coma. While coma'd, he plays out what he thinks will happen based on events and knowledge as they were at the moment he lost consciousness. He imagines Mary's gestation and eventual giving birth, but given that he doesn't know exactly when she conceived, she ends up having a strangely long elephant-like pregnancy. Baby is born and he imagines John being a perfect dad with a harness and Sherlock's got himself a dog and everybody's happy in Suburbia, just the three... no wait, the four... no, five of them against the rest of the world!

...Meanwhile, what's REALLY happening is John being a BAMF working with Mycroft to take down psycho!Mary who was never actually pregnant, because all the signs she scattered throughout the wedding episode were obviously faked for Sherlock to pick up on.

And when Sherlock wakes up, John's character development arc will have caught up and they can deal with the rest of s4 and s5 together as a unit again.

That's why the baby vanishes after e1. It was just part of the dream.

**Posted by SusiGo** September 23, 2016 8:29 pm

I really like your way of thinking. I still find it telling that Victorian Mary who works for Mycroft and has a somewhat bumpy marriage is not pregnant.