BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / 28 Stars you might not know are Bisexual.

**Posted by besleybean** June 1, 2016 5:36 am

I do think there is something about people struggling with an 'ambiguous' definition.
Though personally I don't see what's wrong with either 'agender' or 'bisexual'...
Both to me are definites, in a sense.
It is how you see yourself and to borrow from Michael Stipe: unless somebody(adult) is sitting on your knee, you don't need to know their sexuality!

**Posted by Whisky** June 1, 2016 7:55 am

Or unless somebody is touching your knee... *drunk night at 221b*

**Posted by tonnaree** June 1, 2016 11:46 am

*high fives whiskey*

I think in a sense that you do need to know. Visibility is important because society has always assumed someone is straight if no other information is available. And we need to stop assuming. This is often a subtle thing, like asking a man if he has a wife when we know nothing about him. The better way would be to not assume that he's straight and ask "are you married" or "do you have a spouse."

I know it may seem silly to a lot of you but it can make a big difference.

**Posted by besleybean** June 1, 2016 3:55 pm

Is it just me, I would never dream of asking anybody anything like that?

**Posted by tonnaree** June 1, 2016 5:01 pm

besleybean wrote:
Is it just me, I would never dream of asking anybody anything like that?

When meeting a new co-worker or making a new friend, you would never be interested in if they have a partner? There's nothing inherently wrong with such a question.

**Posted by besleybean** June 1, 2016 5:04 pm

Oh I know, I think it is just me.
I never ask questions like that, I wait for information to be volunteered.
Incidentally, I've had almost the opposite problem...
I used to work with a woman who I assumed was gay.
But I was wrong footed by her having a daughter and referring to a partner!

**Posted by Whisky** June 1, 2016 5:05 pm

I understand about visibility. But it would be much better if people stopped assuming.
Why put the task on the shoulders of bisexual people.

I'm not a fan of "in your face". It's like with the movies. I prefer them to be just movies with a love story. If it's a love story that is not actually about the love, but about telling the audience "look here, gay is okay" or whatever, I'm no fan of it - highlighting is the opposite of accepting something as natural.

**Posted by tonnaree** June 1, 2016 5:06 pm

Well, technically she could still be gay and have a partner and a daughter. But I know what you're trying to say.

**Posted by besleybean** June 1, 2016 5:09 pm

Yeah, that's what I mean.
Apparently she is openly gay.
But because I knew she'd adopted this daughter...
Anyhow, I was terrified I may have spoken out of turn.
But my colleagues assured me she would have put me right, if I had!

**Posted by Liberty** June 1, 2016 5:44 pm

Oh, I've been caught out by assuming people are gay, when they're straight! I think we do make assumptions probably based on prior experience, and I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with that, unless we're being judgemental. I think people tend to assume people are gay if they're in a same sex relationship and straight if they're in an opposite sex relationship - yes, that means bi is under-represented, but I think it's difficult to assume somebody is bi unless you get some indication that they might be. It does often land with the bi person to make it known, and it doesn't so easily come up in conversation the way a relationship does ("my wife", "my boyfriend", etc. - you don't tend to tag on that you're bi). For instance, if I fancied a guy who dated men, and hadn't heard about him dating women, I wouldn't tend to approach him ... the ball would be in his court! (Hypothetically speaking - I'm not looking at the moment).

I do think it's important to bring up children to know about different sexualities and genders - and of course, you don't know for sure what they're going to be when they grow up and you want them to be comfortable with it.

Last edited by Liberty (June 1, 2016 6:19 pm)

**Posted by besleybean** June 1, 2016 5:53 pm

There is one colleague we all assume is gay and have done for about 20 years. But she is certainly not out.
She is somebody I care about dearly and have grave concerns for her...for reasons I won't go into- though what I've said may give a clue!
I don't know if I fit a stereotype. I've always claimed to have a fairly tuned gaydar, though I know some people don't believe in it all.
Funnily enough, working in a primary school, of all the kids who've come out as gay at the high school - we've all more or less predicted it.
Yes I've only known people are bi when I've been told about them trying to get off with both sexes at parties!
I certainly agree with rearing children to be totally open and accepting.
My sister got herself into such a state about coming out and there was absolutely no need.
By the same token, I'm proud my daughter identifies as agender.

Last edited by besleybean (June 1, 2016 5:53 pm)

**Posted by tonnaree** June 1, 2016 6:21 pm

The most important thing about labels, is that people get to choose their own.

**Posted by besleybean** June 1, 2016 6:22 pm

Of course, but then we shouldn't have to, either!

**Posted by Yitzock** June 1, 2016 9:51 pm

As far as using a label or not, one of my favourite film/theatre people said something in an interview that I thought was pretty good.
"Labels are important, especially when you're young. Like, 'I need to know exactly who I am; I am Chinese Canadian, I am American African.' People need that at first, and then you let go of them because you're really only you. But it's good at first because you feel tribal a little bit."
I used to grabble with what label or term fit what I've experienced, but I don't do that quite so much anymore. If you were to ask me I'd say I was queer, or on the asexual spectrum, but I don't really think of myself in such a way anymore. I mean, to begin with "queer" is a pretty broad thing. But I feel like the way I am is too complicated to really fit well in any other word, and it's not as important anymore to me to identify with any specific group.

As far as gaydar or being able to tell if someone is gay or bi or queer...I've predicted that about certain people I've seen on TV and turned out to be right, or partly right. Sometimes it was with characters sometimes it was the personality or actor themselves. I don't know if I'm actually that good at telling, or whether those people just happened to have certain things about them that I have typed as gay or queer characteristics. I may have been wrong before, though, with people I may have guessed were couples. I remember once seeing these two guys at my university hanging out and there was something about the way they were interacting, even if it was just them joking around together, that made me think they were a couple. I found out a week later that one of them was dating a woman. Ultimately, I don't know if he identifies as straight, but I was wrong about him being with that other guy, assuming he was monogamous that is.
But ultimately, whatever someone does or what their orientation is, it's not my business unless they choose to be open about it and don't mind me or others knowing about it, and that's all just fine. I'm not really out to many people, certainly not offline. I've never denied being queer or ace, but it doesn't usually come up and I've never really felt the need to say anything to many people about it. And that's my sexual orientation. Unless any of my offline friends have seen my personal tumblr posts, which I doubt, nobody knows I'm non-binary, but that doesn't bother me most of the time.

I talked a lot more about myself in that post than I had originally intended. Whoops.

**Posted by besleybean** June 2, 2016 5:42 am

Don't we all?!
Don't worry, it's all fine.

**Posted by Liberty** June 2, 2016 6:57 am

And it's interesting, possibly more so than the celebrity quotes! I was especially interested in the difference between what you reveal online and not. I'd say that people who know me in real life generally know a lot more than people online, but I wonder if that's a generational thing? There was no "online" when I was young! And I like your quote. I do remember that when I was younger I wasn't sure who I was in general, and I suppose labels do help both in working it out for yourself, and in finding others that are similar, feeling part of whatever it is. Now, from my grand old age of nevermind, I think there is so much development going on in the teens and even into the early twenties, that it's perfectly normal for people to still be working out who they are (I don't mean just in terms of sexual orientation).

Having said that, I agree that some things seem to be established early on, and some people are aware of their sexual orientation at a very young age. I know some things were established early for me. I do think that there if there wasn't a strong, probably innate leaning towards particular sexual orientations for some people then there wouldn't have been so many people risking public disapproval, careers, reputations, and life and limb to have same sex relationships and experiences.

Last edited by Liberty (June 2, 2016 7:02 am)

**Posted by Whisky** June 2, 2016 7:59 am

You make good points!

Also, as a teenager, being ambiguos is normal. I think if you got a partner and your social environment reacts to it, you are pulled very quickly into the siuation that you question yourself - and eventually out yourself because you realise your sexuality is an important part of selfperception.
I think, even if it can be tough, it's lucky to realise these things young and be able to get comfortable. Also, your friends and family maybe don't have a fixed image of you yet. If people have already put you into in a category in their mind, I think it's so much harder.

Online-offline is also interesting... I think it's a blessing to be able to be online and have support and communities on a wide range and not limited to your own real life bubble. I think for young people, the inernet is an experimental place. Throw things out there, see what happens. With occasional backlashes, but in general, I think it's more blessing than curse. (I did have internet as a teenager, but it was different back then - we actually used it for research a lot and not so much for social reasons. And internet was so tiny - many serious homepages, so much less nonsense and spam... good old times )

Something else... I'm amazed how here in this forum, people are so open about their views and their own experiences

**Posted by Yitzock** June 2, 2016 1:06 pm

I suppose it does depend on when you grew up, how prolific the Internet was at that time vs now. I wouldn't say necessarily that lots of people I know online know stuff. There are things I don't share, especially on a big site luje Tumblr, but I find it can be useful to talk about sexuality and gender related things there, even if nobody responds or reads it. I think it can be a place to test things out, or let things out so that your secrecy with people offline, like family, is not as stifling. I think that's what it is for me.
Or take our conversations here. You guys didn't grow up around me, so you don't have any assumptions about who or what I am. I can be truthful and open about things I am thinking about or things I feel without it potentially clashing horribly with anything you have preconceived, because that isn't there. I guess that's a way of explaining it. I'm not exactly sure how it all works in my head. It's not that I don't trust my friends offline, but if you find community or connection over something, even online, you have something, you build trust.
Also, because online is typically text-based communication, it can be easier to articulate things.

Last edited by Yitzock (June 2, 2016 1:08 pm)

**Posted by tonnaree** June 2, 2016 1:48 pm

I didn't get internet until I was in my late 30's but I love the way it has made the world both a bigger and smaller place.

One of the major things I think it has done for LBGT youth is help them to be less isolated. A young person in a small town in a conservative part of the country doesn't have to suffer in silence. They don't have to think that they are weird or alone. They can find a wealth of information and support on their computer.

And being able to come out at a young age helps stop things like this from happening. Heartbreaking stuff.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trey-pearson-comes-out-gay_us_574edea3e4b0757eaeb11816?utm_hp_ref=queer-voices

Last edited by tonnaree (June 2, 2016 1:54 pm)

**Posted by besleybean** June 2, 2016 3:29 pm

It is sad...and I can't say anymore without getting into trouble!