BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

**Posted by SusiGo** January 24, 2016 4:50 pm

They get back, banter with Mrs Hudson, Watson enters the house with his luggage. All this is implies that he is living there. This is the classic Canon/Granada situation. And only when Mary is revealed we learn that Watson is married.

**Posted by Liberty** January 24, 2016 4:58 pm

Oh, I see what you mean. I don't think John is living there at that point. It looks as if he and Mary recently got married, and he has been off on a case with Sherlock. He'd have moved out when he got married, so the "months" tally up.

**Posted by besleybean** January 24, 2016 5:08 pm

Mary calls John 'husband', that's kind of a big clue.

**Posted by SusiGo** January 24, 2016 5:16 pm

Sorry, but I think you are trying to misunderstand me:

I am talking about what happens before, the arrival, entering the house with the luggage, being greeted by Mrs Hudson, casually entering the living-room, this. If you watch this for the first time, not knowing what is going to come, most people will assume that this is the classic 221B situation we get in Victorian Canon. Watson and Holmes living there. And no wife.

**Posted by besleybean** January 24, 2016 5:24 pm

Er yes....
But they go up stairs and Mary is there
Now John and Mary could both live there.
But it would rather take away the power of Mary's act...
Having said that, it may make more sense of the ' we'll be hungry later' comment.

**Posted by Vhanja** January 24, 2016 5:25 pm

Yes, I agree that most people would assume that. I assumed it too. However, with Mary being in the living room, and us learning that they are married, that changes the assumptions.

**Posted by SusiGo** January 24, 2016 5:26 pm

Exactly, Vhanja.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 24, 2016 5:27 pm)

**Posted by Harriet** January 24, 2016 5:32 pm

Thinking about what we see and are being told: John lives with Sherlock in 221b, is married to Mary, and more or less separated from her (he "abandoned" her).

**Posted by Liberty** January 24, 2016 5:38 pm

Well, in modern Sherlock, Mary continues to play an active part after the marriage, unlike canon Mary who is sidelined and probably dead. That may be another thing that the mourning outfit is addressing - canon Mary's death.

The problem with the marriage seems to be John going off with Sherlock, when Mary wants to come along too. Mary does manage to insist on coming along with John on his adventure at the beginning of HLV (straight after the marriage), but generally doesn't get to join in with them - I suppose that could be setting up problems for S4, if Mary is dissatisfied with that role in modern times as well. She's very keen to get involved on the plane (looking up info on the case Sherlock mentions).

**Posted by mrshouse** January 24, 2016 5:42 pm

Yes, Liberty, that is exactly it. We've been told she would not come between the main characters, yet in what you describe (and what I see, too) she does. What does that have to do with "Sherlock Holmes"?

**Posted by SusiGo** January 24, 2016 5:44 pm

We should never forget that this is how Sherlock chooses to see the marriage in his head. TAB begins and ends with them together in 221B (in the end alone in front of the fireplace, without Mary). This is him reflecting on all that happened so far - a woman in black (!) smelling of a certain perfume (!) coming to claim her husband. Well, well, well …

And Holmes and Watson as Holmes sees him both do not seem to be very keen on going on adventures with Mary. Sorry, but this is what I see.

**Posted by Harriet** January 24, 2016 5:46 pm

You should not say sorry, Susi, your ideas are based on screen facts.

**Posted by SusiGo** January 24, 2016 5:47 pm

Okay. I take it back.

**Posted by besleybean** January 24, 2016 5:50 pm

Well she went on an adventure with them, whether they were keen or not. As we are shown.
We may never know how the BBC Victorian Watsons marriage turned out, or whether John is left a widower.
But we have all this to look forward to, in 2017, back in the modern world.

**Posted by Harriet** January 24, 2016 5:52 pm

Ok, back to Susi's thesis from the beginning which is topic here. Anything to add/comment?

**Posted by besleybean** January 24, 2016 5:55 pm

I took the 'abandonment' to refer to the fact they'd just been away on the jaunt to the country.

**Posted by Schmiezi** January 25, 2016 5:08 am

Harriet wrote:
Ok, back to Susi's thesis from the beginning which is topic here. Anything to add/comment?

I am very interested in the idea of the MP foreshadowing what will happen in S4. In my mind it makes sense. We are, after all, inside the mind of a genius. Now you can debate what is being foreshadowed (can you use the verb that way?) and your answers might vary on what you want to see and what you decide to ignore.

**Posted by besleybean** January 25, 2016 6:44 am

As usual, your English is perfect.
I am also perfectly happy to see TAB as foreshadowing S4.
It's just that I don't really see it as telling us an awful lot.
Plus, both images and words can be interpreted in different ways...as we well know.
I've just glanced at the title, to check which thread I was on!
But to be honest, I think my comments were going to be about John and Mary anyway.
Mary enters TAB apparently dressed as a widow.
Now can this represent the death of a former way of life?
I do hope it doesn't represent the mourning of the loss of John.
I certainly doubt this, as it would almost mark the end of the show.
Could her joining the boys at the crypt represent her working with them more in the future?
I don't know.
Could her being shown working for Mycroft also be a clue to such a revel in S4?
Again, we'll have to wait and see.
But I see nothing that makes me think the Watson's marriage is going to end...at least not voluntarily.
Though I accept this may happen through death.

**Posted by Liberty** January 25, 2016 8:06 am

mrshouse wrote:
Yes, Liberty, that is exactly it. We've been told she would not come between the main characters, yet in what you describe (and what I see, too) she does. What does that have to do with "Sherlock Holmes"?

She doesn't come between them, so much as want to make it a threesome (!).    That's interesting, because she didn't quite give that indication in S3 - we do know that she's adventurous, etc., but she seemed happy to send them off without her. But Sherlock thinks she wants to come along too.

I think a big part of it is about the role of women - the fact that it was perfectly unremarkable for Holmes and Watson to be going on adventures together, or even just spending a lot of time together after Watson was married - that after TSOT the "wife" is sidelined even more than Mrs Hudson. I think there's a bit of an observation there about how that wouldn't work well in our modern version. And of course, Sherlock has to understand women's place, and their dissatisfaction with it to solve the case.   But I still wonder if he saw something about Mary that we didn't.

We also see that John and Sherlock do end up working with Mary, and it could be a sign that she's going to join them in S4.   That's not something I want to see (although possibly, with a very well written episode ...), and I have faith that the writers know the power of Sherlock and John as a duo - they've always talked about them as a pair.

Mind you, there is a female accomplice/double agent through the big story in TPLOSH, a film they say they love and often reference - maybe they want to try it out for an episode or two?

**Posted by SusiGo** January 25, 2016 8:14 am

I think by now one cannot deny that she has come between them and her behaviour during the modern scenes is not exactly driven by compassion and understanding towards Sherlock.

It would be nice if they went for a TPLOSH version but of course it would have to be different since we already know that Mary has a dark past. But, yes, I think we might see them going after the Moriarty gang or whatever you may call it together and then something very bad will happen. Think of dark and devastating.