BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Don't be dead...

**Posted by sherlocked** March 23, 2012 7:52 am

I don't think, John has any concrete ideas about Sherlock's survival. His grief and confusion is too real, and the whole point of Sherlock's suicide note and performance was, to convince John.
BUT, to utter those words, there must be a nagging point in John's brain, something in his subconsciousness, which vexes him and makes him feel unreal about Sherlock being dead and a fraud. We all have pointed out, that the performance of the 'homeless paramedics and doctors' wasn't exactly school medicin procedure, and John was just too dazed and confused to be too quizzical about it. But there is something else. Remember the touching exchange, when John points out, that at their first meeting Sherlock knew all about his sister, and Sherlock responds, that nobody could be that clever and that he researched John in order to show off and impress him. Now, John has all the time in the world to mull things over and over again, and he must eventually remember the jarring little fact, that Sherlock did NOT know, John has a sister - he thought, John has a brother. So the claim, that he had researched John cannot be true; even a very superficial research should have gotten the basic facts about John's family right. As soon as John realizes, that Sherlock probably lied on this point, he must ask himself, what else is wrong with the whole scenario of Sherlock as a suicidal fraud.

Last edited by sherlocked (March 23, 2012 8:24 am)

**Posted by Sherlock Holmes** March 23, 2012 8:33 am

Never thought about that specific point before...I've often wondered that if, when looking back on the events afterwards, whether anything would stick out in John's mind as not being quite right.

You're right he must have known that Sherlock was lying on that point and that Sherlock didn't really believe he was a fake either...although that doesn't neccessarily mean he would work out that Sherlock was still alive...he might just think the real reason for him jumping was something else, perhaps something "dull" like Moriarty holding a gun to his back or some other reason.

I think John does definitely believe he's dead, his words at the graveside are just in grief and desperation.

**Posted by sherlocked** March 23, 2012 8:39 am

Sherlock, I agree, that John believes Sherlock to be dead, BUT there must be things with the whole scenario, that bugg him. Sherlock's obvious lie about having researched him should be one of those little nagging things.
As you say, it should give him some concrete evidence (as opposed to just a vague feeling), that Sherlock is probably lying about being a fraud, and that there must be a good reason for Sherlock to go along with Moriarty's slander.

Last edited by sherlocked (March 23, 2012 8:56 am)

**Posted by kazza474** March 23, 2012 2:27 pm

sherlocked wrote:
I don't think, John has any concrete ideas about Sherlock's survival. His grief and confusion is too real, and the whole point of Sherlock's suicide note and performance was, to convince John.
BUT, to utter those words, there must be a nagging point in John's brain, something in his subconsciousness, which vexes him and makes him feel unreal about Sherlock being dead and a fraud. We all have pointed out, that the performance of the 'homeless paramedics and doctors' wasn't exactly school medicin procedure, and John was just too dazed and confused to be too quizzical about it. ....

Having been in a similar situation (no they weren't a 'hero' but a close friend) EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING is blurred; not real ; must be happening to someone else; this was NEVER on the cards to happen... etc etc etc. Not just blurred for now, but for all times. It never gets any more lucid than when it happens; afterwards, possibilities, reasons etc actually blur it even more. Eventually 'did I witness a suicide?' is the ultimate question; "it must have been a dream/tv show/film."
So I don't see John analysing it any more than from what he experienced. The sub conscious actually blocks any 'piecing together' of the facts later unless there is an independent witness who can clarify things. There isn't in this case.
So really the medics, the the crowd onlookers. etc become irrelevant to John. He is NOT a genius, or one of high intellect so he won't process what happened any more than 'Sherlock died'.

You always hold out hope that what you THINK you witnessed was all wrong, but it never comes to fruition. I think John HOES it was a bad dream, but by the time he was at the grave, he said those things to 'lose' them. He couldn't hold those hopes any longer.

Last edited by kazza474 (March 23, 2012 2:29 pm)

**Posted by Davina** March 23, 2012 2:35 pm

True John isn't a genius but as a qualified doctor he is far from stupid and remember he tells Sherlock that he was a very good Army doctor. The other way in which John may start to process things a little differently from many people is that he has been in combat situations, been wounded and has had PTS. It is possible that part of the grief he feels for Sherlock is also a reflection of the disappearance of the stress and excitement from his life again. Just like when he first returned from Afghanistan. Remember that he has been thriving on the danger, excitement and stress of it all with Sherlock and with Sherlock's death this has all gone again. The scenes showing John at the flat after Sherlock's suicide are reminiscent of the scenes in Study In Pink when he is alone in his room.

Just some thoughts.

**Posted by kazza474** March 23, 2012 2:48 pm

The whole 'Sherlock' experience was a whirlwind for John.
Nor would he have been witness to many "close friends' " deaths in the army. This is just too close and personal for John; Sherlock was his closest friend at that stage, his 'companion'.
In that situation, the lines of 'what we know' tend to blur forever.

He believe he is dead; his biggest question would be 'was he ever here>?

**Posted by sherlocked** March 23, 2012 4:04 pm

Unfortunately I have experienced a situation like John's as well. It's something I would not wish for my very worst enemy. For me, nothing I ever experienced with my friend, what we talked about last time we were together, what I thought about her, is a blurr; it's edged in my brain sharp and clear forever.Everybody reacts differently.
But I honestly don't believe, that's the point here. I don't think, this show is about a realistic portrait, how to cope with suicide of a family member or a close friend. Sure, the good script and Freeman's great acting touch us immensely, but so many clues and allusions are planted carefully throughout this episode, in order to set up the denouement coming in the third season. The dialogs are extremely clever in reveiling and concealing important points at the same time. That makes me think, the writers did not pick by chance John's sister Harriet as an example of Sherlock's supposed research into John's circumstances, the one point, where Sherlock's deductions were wrong! The writers could have chosen Sherlock's deductions of John having been a military doctor in Afghanistan instead.
John believes Sherlock to be dead. But there are certain points, that vex him ('it's a magic trick...'); after all, it's Sherlock, we are talking about. He doesn't hope for a miracle, but he puts it at least into words - and, voila, in the very last scene, we, the audience see, that he will get it, even, if he doesn't know it yet.

Last edited by sherlocked (March 23, 2012 4:20 pm)

**Posted by tobeornot221b** March 23, 2012 4:55 pm

There’s something that strikes me as being completely improbable.
I’m talking about the time between the fall and the funeral.
After the shock of having witnessed Sherlock’s jump John normally would have insisted on seeing his friend’s body in the morgue for a last time – at least the next day. And there wouldn’t have been a reason to prevent him from doing so. He’s Sherlock’s best friend and a doctor as well who would examine bodies in this very morgue (see “the speckeled blonde" ).
Apparently this didn’t happen, no closer examination of “dead" Sherlock by John – otherwise he would have noticed that there was something fishy about the situation.

Last edited by tobeornot221b (March 23, 2012 5:07 pm)

**Posted by theCuriousOne** March 23, 2012 5:05 pm

sentiment I'd say.. John still can't believe his best friend suicide before his eyes... or maybe a higher authority forbid him doing so?

**Posted by sherlocked** March 23, 2012 5:08 pm

Hi, tobeornot221b;
Greetings from a fellow German Sherlock fan!
To your question:I guess, John has no official authorisation to visit the morgue; Sherlock always took him along. Molly would have been adamant, that it's not a good idea for John to see the body of his best friend.
I have found your screengrab of the tiny hooked object Sherlock is possibly concealing in his hand on the roof, by the way! I've seen exactly the same, only sharper and clearer than on your grab. Thank you for posting it anyway. I will write about it later, since my guinea pigs have seen it also. They made some very interesting observations, too.
Now I ask myself, if there is a conspiracy, and only Germans can see it, lol!

Last edited by sherlocked (March 23, 2012 5:10 pm)

**Posted by tobeornot221b** March 23, 2012 5:21 pm

John may not have an official permission to visit the morgue as a doctor but a moral right to do so as a friend of a deceased. Think of the mourning people at the morgue during Sherlock's and Mycroft's visit at Christmas - apparently they were allowed to see a dead relative/friend. Maybe it wouldn't have been a good idea for John to see Sherlock's body but at least he's an army doctor who saw men/friends die before. Molly wouldn't have been able to prevent him if he insisted.

Give my regards to your not only seeing but observing guinea-pigs!

**Posted by m0r1arty** March 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Well we know from this video:

That Sherlock jumped from the roof of Saint Bart's in the early hours of the previous morning. Whilst it is elusive UK knowledge, those presenters are weekday presenters which matches up nicely with Kitty publishing her findings on a Saturday. This means that when Sherlock and Jim are having their talk just after Sunrise on Sunday that the nation suspects that Holmes is already a fraud.

With that in mind (Sensationalism and questionable affairs of state secrets) being permitted to view the body could have been overruled and John may never have gotten the chance to see his corpse.

Of course the video also states that it has been just over 2 months since the "Trail of the century" and as is stated in John's blog this was June 16th. Which means the trial took place around the middle of April, the crime probably a day or perhaps a week before. With that in mind Sherlock had two months to figure out what Jim was alluding to when he visited 221b which the fast paced storytelling glosses over making it have a more immediate feel.

Two months for a high functioning sociopath such as Sherlock is an eternity. It also gives him ample time to prepare for whatever it is we'll hopefully find out at the start of series 3.

-m0r

**Posted by sherlocked** March 23, 2012 7:01 pm

Ha, ha, tobeornot221b! Yes, I will give your regards to my 'observing' guinea pigs, one of them being my husband, lol! As you probably know yourself, it ain't easy to find a knowledgeable Sherlock-fan in Germany. Since the German dvd is not out, yet, there should be at least the willingness and ability to make do with the English subtitles. I became a real fan, by the way, only after watching the original; without Ben's great voice, it's only half the fun.
Your argument about the morgue visits is a good one, but I guess, higher authorities or Mycroft could prevent John from viewing the body. He is after all a friend and not a relative. And, as moriarty wrote, Sherlock had probably enough time to think about all eventualities.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** March 23, 2012 7:29 pm

sherlocked wrote:
I became a real fan, by the way, only after watching the original; without Ben's great voice, it's only half the fun.

I couldn't agree more!

Your argument about the morgue visits is a good one, but I guess, higher authorities or Mycroft could prevent John from viewing the body. He is after all a friend and not a relative. And, as moriarty wrote, Sherlock had probably enough time to think about all eventualities.

Of course you are right. It has to be the way it is. Otherwise the story wouldn’t work. It’s in contrast to the original where Holmes seems to disappear into the Falls. No chance for Watson to examine Holmes' death any closer. He cannot but be absolutely certain that his friend is dead.

Last edited by tobeornot221b (March 23, 2012 7:30 pm)

**Posted by Davina** March 24, 2012 3:49 pm

If the trial was in April the crime itself would have happened a considerable time beforehand. Also Mycroft as Sherlock's next-of-kin would have identified the body in the morgue. There would have been no need for John to do so. Remember that as far as he is aware John has witnessed Sherlock falling to his death. Suicide 'note', being made to watch him jump and not take his eyes off him. He would have believed Sherlock to be dead after watching him jump from that height, because that's what people do. Why would he also need to see the body in the morgue? He believes him to be dead.

**Posted by sherlockian111** January 24, 2013 5:44 am

It's been close to a year since the last post on this but whatever. Guys, John didn't suspect anything though, if he did, then yeah, he would've insisted on seeing the body, but he didn't. Seeing your best friend commit suicide right before your eyes would be a pretty traumatic experience, even for someone who's been in the army, so John would be in shock. There would also be the 'this can't be real, it's just a dream, please can this just be a dream' phase (know the feeling). And also, maybe John didn't want to see Sherlock's body