BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / John Watson in S4

**Posted by Vhanja** August 31, 2015 8:53 pm

I would hope that John experiences as little heartbreak as possible. The poor man has been through enough. And to me, it seems that anger would be easier for him than pure grief. So for that reason I hope Mary turns out to be so evil that John loses whatever feelings he had for her. And that the baby isn't his (for the same reason, and also to clean up the mess and get the boys back in 221B with as little fallout as possible).

**Posted by Yitzock** August 31, 2015 11:02 pm

I think it would be a little unbelievable if the baby weren't John's. Though I would agree it would be a bit too much if she died, too. Just because she's John's baby doesn't mean that he can't go back to Baker Street if Mary is out of the picture. Either he'll keep the baby (prompting awkwardnesss from Sherlock no doubt) or he'll have to make the choice of giving her up for adoption upon realization that without a wife or someone to help him (if Sherlock is unwilling) that it would be impossible for him to be a proper father.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** September 1, 2015 1:29 am

If Dexter could manage to be a competent and loving single father, I'm sure John can manage. There are nannies, parenting classes, etc,. He's a middle-aged man, a doctor and ex-soldier. John's got this!

**Posted by Yitzock** September 1, 2015 1:39 am

True, true. I'm just saying it's possible that he'll believe he can't be a proper father, but of course I think he could be. I was just considering different ways it could go in that situation.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** September 1, 2015 1:58 am

See, THIS exactly is the issue with John-- somehow his character has become so afraid of everything, so afraid of trusting himself, Sherlock-- but he trusts Mary?????

Of all the characters on the show, I'm beginning to think that his is the one most in need of a SERIOUS growth arc.....

**Posted by Schmiezi** September 1, 2015 4:07 am

Yitzock wrote:
I think it would be a little unbelievable if the baby weren't John's.

I think that there was a little too much emphasis on the fact that David exists in TSoT. Why? Probably to give us a first clue about who is the baby's father.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** September 1, 2015 4:21 am

Schmiezi wrote:
Yitzock wrote:
I think it would be a little unbelievable if the baby weren't John's.
I think that there was a little too much emphasis on the fact that David exists in TSoT. Why? Probably to give us a first clue about who is the baby's father.

Heh!!!!

**Posted by SolarSystem** September 1, 2015 4:38 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I'd rather have John shoot Sherlock, than have Sherlock be in any way responsible for her death.

Idon't want another season (or two) of John blaming Sherlock and distancing himself--or swearing off the freindship entirely till season 5!

Yeah, John might be sad-- but, I'd rather Sherlock be able to be a support for him, rather than being the scapegoat. Again.
In my head I can see the scenario going in such a way that John does not blame Sherlock for Mary's death. One of the things I mean by wanting to see Mary revealed as a True Villian.

Totally agree.

Same here. We have already seen John getting very angry in the scene in 221B in HLV, sadly though he wasn't only angry with Mary but also with Sherlock. This has to change. And I'm completely with tonnaree here, I want Mary to turn out so bad and John getting so angry and full of wrath that killing her will feel much more like a relief to him than a tragedy. Killing her in order to save Sherlock would be the icing on the cake.

**Posted by Vhanja** September 1, 2015 9:03 am

The problem with the baby would be to make it fit in with the series, especially if Mary is somehow out of the picture. They simply can't run around solving crimes with a baby at home. Or would they leave the baby with Mrs Hudson? ("Just this once, dear, I'm not your nanny").

If the baby died or John gave it away for adoption, that would break his heart. Probably more so than Mary. I don't want to see that happening.

That's why I can't see any good solution out of this, when there's a baby involved.

**Posted by tonnaree** September 1, 2015 12:47 pm

Vhanja wrote:
The problem with the baby would be to make it fit in with the series, especially if Mary is somehow out of the picture. They simply can't run around solving crimes with a baby at home. Or would they leave the baby with Mrs Hudson? ("Just this once, dear, I'm not your nanny").

If the baby died or John gave it away for adoption, that would break his heart. Probably more so than Mary. I don't want to see that happening.

That's why I can't see any good solution out of this, when there's a baby involved.

That is why I really want the baby to either be fake or not John's. As much as I enjoy reading ParentLock, I can't see it actually working on the show.

**Posted by mrshouse** September 1, 2015 12:49 pm

**Posted by Vhanja** September 1, 2015 1:18 pm

I agree (except for not reading ParentLock).

Lol, awesome t-shirt!

I cant' see it being fake, though. John lives with Mary and shares a bed with her. He would notice a fake tummy.

**Posted by Yitzock** September 1, 2015 1:28 pm

Vhanja wrote:
The problem with the baby would be to make it fit in with the series, especially if Mary is somehow out of the picture. They simply can't run around solving crimes with a baby at home. Or would they leave the baby with Mrs Hudson? ("Just this once, dear, I'm not your nanny").

If the baby died or John gave it away for adoption, that would break his heart. Probably more so than Mary. I don't want to see that happening.

That's why I can't see any good solution out of this, when there's a baby involved.

So then, maybe he would have to make a choice, but none of the options are particularly favourable. And yet he'd have to decide on something. Maybe he'd keep the baby briefly, and then have to say goodbye (I'd probably cry).

I don't know how likely or plausible it would be for Mycroft to get involved in this, but it could be possible that he'd help them find a family for the baby where John could visit, be like an uncle or godfather or something (or would that be too much like Downton Abbey?). Then at least he wouldn't be estranged from his first child. He could still be involved in his child's life while also being able to keep up the kind of life he has with Sherlock. He wouldn't have to worry about the child's care, but he wouldn't be uninvolved.

Last edited by Yitzock (September 1, 2015 1:29 pm)

**Posted by Dorothy83** September 1, 2015 1:32 pm

the more I think about it, the more I think they will play with the 'did she die in childbirth' question that Sherlock Holmes fans always wondered in canon. Perhaps she'll become involved in the next case, get attacked, and die as a result. Although this will mean that she dies in, like, the first episode of s4 since she is about ready to pop at the end of HLV...

But regardless, they always refer to canon, so it could very well be that that's what happens. Since she didn't die in HLV, Mary is now on borrowed time. And if the attack is a result of her previous life, John won't be able to blame Sherlock.

The baby will die too, because certainly if making John and Sherlock openly gay would stray too much from canon, giving them a baby to raise would, as well, so I don't get why the second option should be more plausible in the show than the first.

Last edited by Dorothy83 (September 1, 2015 1:34 pm)

**Posted by Vhanja** September 1, 2015 1:36 pm

I can't picture John adopting the baby away. That would make him look (rightly so) like a horrible father. Who adopts their baby away just so that they can continue running around solving crimes? That's the best (worst?) example of being selfish and irresponsible, and would probably divide the fanbase even more when it comes to John. That to me would be far, far worse than anything else he has ever done.

**Posted by tonnaree** September 1, 2015 1:37 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I agree (except for not reading ParentLock).

Lol, awesome t-shirt!

I cant' see it being fake, though. John lives with Mary and shares a bed with her. He would notice a fake tummy.

What made it even better was that the cosplayer was really pregnant!

**Posted by Dorothy83** September 1, 2015 1:49 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I can't picture John adopting the baby away. That would make him look (rightly so) like a horrible father. Who adopts their baby away just so that they can continue running around solving crimes? That's the best (worst?) example of being selfish and irresponsible, and would probably divide the fanbase even more when it comes to John. That to me would be far, far worse than anything else he has ever done.

well, in XFiles Scully gives her beloved baby up for adoption (the baby she had been dreaming of having) because she realises that he would be in danger living with her since she has people after her (and after the baby too).
So likewise, if Mary is killed by someone from her past, John could really easily conclude that those people might come back for the baby too and would never want her to die as well, so the wisest option would be to give her away to someone preferably living in another continent That wouldn't make him a horrible father at all.

However story-wise then the baby wouldn't make any sense, if they give her away so quickly, plus the baby would loom over the rest of the show like a ghost so I don't think that's how it's going to go.

Last edited by Dorothy83 (September 1, 2015 1:50 pm)

**Posted by Vhanja** September 1, 2015 1:54 pm

Dorothy83 wrote:
well, in XFiles Scully gives her beloved baby up for adoption (the baby she had been dreaming of having) because she realises that he would be in danger living with her since she has people after her (and after the baby too).
So likewise, if Mary is killed by someone from her past, John could really easily conclude that those people might come back for the baby too and would never want her to die as well, so the wisest option would be to give her away to someone preferably living in another continent That wouldn't make him a horrible father at all.

However story-wise then the baby wouldn't make any sense, if they give her away so quickly, plus the baby would loom over the rest of the show like a ghost so I don't think that's how it's going to go.

Yeah, if that was a real danger, that would be a different situation. However, for John to ever be in that situation, I reckon Mary would be dead. And if she was dead, then her enemies wouldn't be after John anymore, would they?

But I agree, it seems a bit far-fetched and would change the focus of the story entirely.

**Posted by Yitzock** September 1, 2015 2:28 pm

Yeah, I can kind of see how it could shift the focus of the story, though I believe whatever happens will be going on at the same time as something even more significant. Kind of like there will be things pushing on John (and the other characters) from all sides.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** September 1, 2015 3:55 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
tonnaree wrote:

In my head I can see the scenario going in such a way that John does not blame Sherlock for Mary's death. One of the things I mean by wanting to see Mary revealed as a True Villian.

Totally agree.
Same here. We have already seen John getting very angry in the scene in 221B in HLV, sadly though he wasn't only angry with Mary but also with Sherlock. This has to change. And I'm completely with tonnaree here, I want Mary to turn out so bad and John getting so angry and full of wrath that killing her will feel much more like a relief to him than a tragedy. Killing her in order to save Sherlock would be the icing on the cake.

I want John to make the consicous choice of Sherlock over Mary-- so, yes-- this scenario would do nicley!