BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Is Sherlock selfish?

**Posted by Dorothy83** April 8, 2015 2:25 pm

This is something I’ve always thought about. People always talk about how Sherlock ‘grew up’ in S3, how he went from a child to an adult and learnt to ‘put other people before himself’. But was Sherlock *really* selfish before that? And when?

I thought about it, and I’m not sure that he was. I am not sure he put himself before other people..

I’m not talking about using the fridge for his experiments – especially as I’m sure he would still do that, even know – it’s just not practical to leave random severed heads in the fridges at Bart’s, someone could tamper with the experiment!! J (Maybe John could just buy him a mini-fridge to keep in his room?? )
But when was Sherlock *really* selfish?
Can we say he was selfish when he didn’t care about Sally/Anderson’s feelings when he insulted them? I would say he was defending himself from their bullying – and they deserved it.

Was he selfish when he scared the lady at the school in TRF, to get her to ‘speak quickly’? Well, he was rough – but he was trying to solve the case quickly and save lives – what’s more important?

Was he selfish when he jumped off the roof at Barts? Well, perhaps a bit, but he was doing it to protect John/his mission, which ultimately meant protecting John as well as he was making sure to completely destroy Moriarty, the person who’d endangered John (and many others). Yes, he didn’t think about John’s feelings, but I think it was a matter of ignorance/naiveté on his part (as in, he thought John wasn’t going to be so affected), rather than selfishness.

He wasn’t selfish when he immediately offered to get rid of stuff/clean up at John’s minuscule protest when he first showed him the flat. He wasn’t selfish when he gave John, a guy he’d known for a matter of days, his credit card – when John didn’t even let him use his laptop. You get the gist.. and we all know how seriously generous and selfless he can be for the ‘big’ things.

So when was Sherlock *really* selfish? I’m not saying he wasn’t…I’m just interested in hearing your opinion.

**Posted by A lovely light** April 8, 2015 2:42 pm

Would you let a friend to take your laptop to work on it without your permission? I know i woudn't (and every time i used someone else computer i asked for permission, there was an era when only 1 out of 5 people had one, so i had to ask a lot back in time). Laptops have a load of private data on them. Like birth certificates or medical papers (which we see that Sherlock also has got somehow, where the birth certificate is clearly without John's consent).It is a matter of principle here - has nothing to do with being selfish. A laptop is not to handle like a cup or a book or something which has not private information.

As from him being selfish, Sherlock is as a normal people is, i don't know any who hasn't got an amount of it. It is for self preservation, i think.

**Posted by Dorothy83** April 8, 2015 2:43 pm

A lovely light wrote:
Would you let a friend to take your laptop to work on it without your permission?

well, actually, I would? In fact I have done it? What's wrong with that - it's a friend, not a stranger?

**Posted by Vhanja** April 8, 2015 2:57 pm

Yes, I believe Sherlock was selfish quite often. His motivation for the general cases were for the most part the entertainment it gave his brain, ie to rid himself of his own boredom. Except for saving the lives and limbs of the few people he holds dear, he mostly seems to put himself and his wants first. That is part of who he is.

**Posted by Dorothy83** April 8, 2015 2:58 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Yes, I believe Sherlock was selfish quite often. His motivation for the general cases were for the most part the entertainment it gave his brain, ie to rid himself of his own boredom. Except for saving the lives and limbs of the few people he holds dear, he mostly seems to put himself and his wants first. That is part of who he is.

But does he really only do it for the entertainment? Or does he like to say that, to hide that he cares?

**Posted by Vhanja** April 8, 2015 3:01 pm

I personally think that he really means it, especially in the first seasons. If he really did care, he wouldn't dismiss or refuse to do cases because he found them boring.

**Posted by Dorothy83** April 8, 2015 3:03 pm

He can't spend his time trying to find a rabbit, though, can he? It seems to me like that also shows that he cares...he only uses his skills for important cases where lives are at stake, and doesn't waste valuable time on rubbish

**Posted by Vhanja** April 8, 2015 3:06 pm

I see a tendency sometimes that some fans are willing to excuse and rationalize all of Sherlock's bad behaviour, and I find that to be a tad worrysome. I don't like Sherlock because he is secretely a white-winged angel - I find him immensly interesting for the fact that he isn't. And it's perfectly okay, more than okay, to really, really enjoy and like the character without excusing his behaviour.

Sometimes Sherlock is an arsehole. He is rude, arrogant, thoughtless and selfish. He is also warm, caring, vulnerable, loyal and brave. It's the complexity of his nature that makes him so interesting to me.

**Posted by Dorothy83** April 8, 2015 3:12 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I see a tendency sometimes that some fans are willing to excuse and rationalize all of Sherlock's bad behaviour, and I find that to be a tad worrysome. I don't like Sherlock because he is secretely a white-winged angel - I find him immensly interesting for the fact that he isn't. And it's perfectly okay, more than okay, to really, really enjoy and like the character without excusing his behaviour.

Sometimes Sherlock is an arsehole. He is rude, arrogant, thoughtless and selfish. He is also warm, caring, vulnerable, loyal and brave. It's the complexity of his nature that makes him so interesting to me.

hey, I wasn't trying to jusitfy him. I was playing Devil's advocate - I actually don't care that people think he's selfish, I like that he is an asshole sometimes, I think exactly the same as you. I just wanted to speculate for fun, but we don't have to.

**Posted by A lovely light** April 8, 2015 3:12 pm

Dorothy83 wrote:
A lovely light wrote:
Would you let a friend to take your laptop to work on it without your permission?
well, actually, I would? In fact I have done it? What's wrong with that - it's a friend, not a stranger?

Perhaps for you is nothing wrong and you have only positive experiences, but i would NEVER let anyone know everything about me. I won't be confortable with it. Especially from them getting the information without my knowledge. When i was young, i let some people i thought were my friends to know some of my problems - they have used them to be promoted or just get power by digging me in front of our chefs. It gets very easy with some information, which at the first glance might look as very banal. Even the family of my man used my trust against me. So, i am now very cautious which persons i trust and what i let them know.

**Posted by Liberty** April 8, 2015 5:34 pm

I think his sacrifice at the end of TRF showed him up as selfless rather than selfish.

**Posted by Vhanja** April 8, 2015 5:37 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think his sacrifice at the end of TRF showed him up as selfless rather than selfish.

Why can't he be both? Most people act both selfishly and selflessly, depending on the situation.

**Posted by Liberty** April 8, 2015 6:36 pm

I think he can be - but I think he was unusually selfless at that point, selfless in the extreme. Doing it is selfless, but then he doesn't even seem to ask for credit or acknowledgement for it when he comes back. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show off, to look for glory, etc.

**Posted by nakahara** April 8, 2015 7:25 pm

Lack of social niceties and an unpleasant character does not equal selfishness. Story-wise, Sherlock is the most unselfish character in the show. No other character sacrificed so much for such a low, or downright none, profit.

**Posted by SusiGo** April 8, 2015 7:30 pm

I agree. His behaviour is often rude, intrusive, even callous, but I do not think that he acts out of selfishness, not even in series 1. Even if we suppose that he solves crimes to keep boredom away his work usually results in people being saved or justice restored. And he never does it for money, quite the contrary.

**Posted by NatureNoHumansNo** April 8, 2015 7:45 pm

But does he solve crimes because he cares about people, or because it keeps his mind busy?
I'm not sure the notion of selfishness/selflessness is accurate to describe SH. He can be seen as both, but I'm not sure that the connection to people this notion implies is the motivation of his actions.
The only thing is really does out of selflessness, is IMHO, accepting to be Watson's best man, cause we can be almost sure he wouldn't have done it for anyone else.

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (April 8, 2015 7:53 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** April 8, 2015 7:47 pm

I do not think he would have shot Magnussen for anyone else either. And he did not fake his death and leave his life behind out of selfishness.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 8, 2015 7:48 pm)

**Posted by nakahara** April 8, 2015 7:50 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
But does he solve crimes because he cares about people, or because it keeps his mind busy.

And does John save lives because he cares about people, or because he is an adrenaline junkie who gets off the blood?

And do mothers love their children because they care about them, or do they only fullfil their own craving and maternal instincts with that?

If we questioned people´s motives like that, absolutely everybody would be categorised as selfish.

What matters here is the personal gain, IMHO - and we can see that other people profit from Sherlock´s actions, not Sherlock himself.

**Posted by NatureNoHumansNo** April 8, 2015 8:07 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I do not think he would have shot Magnussen for anyone else either. And he did not fake his death and leave his life behind out of selfishness.

well, it's more debatable. He says nobody repells him more than Magnussen, and he confesses he hates hime to Mycroft because Magnussen uses his power against people who are different and I guess Holmes can feel direct concern about this.
And I can't see the all "death faking" thing only as a sacrifice.It had to be part of mind game / power game with moriarty ( otherwhise, and with Mycroft huge material means, it could have been other way)

**Posted by nakahara** April 8, 2015 8:15 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
And I can't see the all "death faking" thing only as a sacrifice.It had to be part of mind game / power game with moriarty ( otherwhise, and with Mycroft huge material means, it could have been other way)

And this diminishes Sherlock´s sacrifice somehow?
The need to fake his death stripped him of everything and earned him a fist to the nose and the wrath of the person who mattered most to him - while he saved the lives of many people with his "mind-game".