Posted by tehanu  March 13, 2015 10:26 am | #1 |
Hello. I don't know where to post this (here? under characters > Moriarty?) and can't seem to find answers to this on the forum without reading a million posts. This is about what the public and various other people, and in the end especially Mary, knew or thought they knew about Moriarty's fate after season two.
In Many Happy Returns, Anderson sort of feels guilty for Sherlock's death. Underneath his sightings theory, he apparently thinks that Sherlock killed himself because he and Donovan helped Moriarty make him look so much like a fake (which Lestrade says out loud in TEH). There seems to be no reason for him to think that Moriarty was even on the roof of Bart's, let alone talked Sherlock into jumping -- unless Moriarty's body was found there later, or the whole rooftop scene is on camera somewhere?
Then in TEH, Anderson has a theory about Sherlock's jump-but-survival according to which somebody (some associates of Sherlock) grabbed Moriarty's dead body, made it look like Sherlock's and carried it into a lift and down to the pavement. So, apparently Moriarty's body was not found on the roof (because wouldn't Anderson know?) Whether he died there or not (and I guess ultimately both are possible, what with Mofftis being so sly)
The police would investigate a roof somebody jumped off and killed himself, wouldn't they? Anderson is no longer on the police in MHR, but he still was right after Sherlock jumped. I guess the Met is a large force, but wouldn't he know? Was there a dead body on the roof then or not? Because somebody other than Sherlock's or Mycroft's people could have moved it too; Moriarty's people were watching, if only so that they knew when to stop aiming at John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson.
Skip to the end of HLV. Molly, Mrs Hudson and Lestrade (all "ordinary people" without high clearances or anything) are shocked to see the gif of Moriarty. Now a gif doesn't make him alive. We can wonder because we have seen the extra "live" footage of Jim at the very end of HLV, but they haven't seen it. Still, they react as if it meant he was alive and a threat (and so does Mary and so do the government officials; not counting Mycroft's reaction, which might be suspect though who knows).
Do those reactions, especially those of Molly, Mrs Hudson and Lestrade mean that they thought he was dead but now they fear he is alive after all, or that they did not know if he was dead, just thought he was out of the game either way, and now see he is "back" (but possibly not from the dead)?
Finally, Mary's reaction: "But he’s dead. I mean, you told me he was dead, Moriarty." Doesn't it sound like she means she only thought so because John (and Sherlock) told her that, but it wasn't public knowledge?
I would be grateful for corrections / answers / suggestions / links.
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Posted by NatureNoHumansNo March 13, 2015 12:50 pm | #2 |
oh, very intesresting pondering, indeed. I wondered too, what had been found on the roof, what does the police (including Anderson) knows and what the public does, since in the différents exposed theories, one of them considers Moriarty dead and the other one considers him alive ( I know it's a weird theory, with Sherlock and Moriarty kissing, but if it had been stated as a public fact that Moriarty was dead, this theory couldn't have even been formed..)
I had not linked it to many happy returns, but there's maybe some elements to consider in it.
About the gif, I guess that whatever breaks the current programm and gets aired on every screen, it's a shock ;) but, since it's obviously a photo montage, I guess the sensible question would be " what does that mean?" rather than "Is Moriarty alive?" so the question stays about what does the public/the police/the british governement knows or not. ( And another little pondering, off topic, but i'm not sure it deserves a whole thread : since when is there a television in Bart's lab? )
Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (March 13, 2015 7:57 pm)
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Posted by tehanu March 13, 2015 1:05 pm | #3 |
NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
oh, very intesresting pondering, indeed. I wondered too, what had been found on the roof, what does the police (including Anderson) knows and what the public does, since in the différents exposed theories, one of them considers Moriarty dead and the other one considers him alive ( I know it's a weird theory, with Sherlock and Moriarty kissing, but if it had been stated as a public fact that Moriarty was dead, this theory couldn't have even been formed..)
I had not linked it to many happy returns, but there's maybe some elements to consider in it.
Oh I forgot all about the kiss theory 
. Right then, this is another person who thought that Moriarty was on the roof and lived. Why both, was he seen going there or what? Or was the team so happy to play with our minds that they didn't mind getting a little sloppy?
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Posted by REReader March 13, 2015 8:11 pm | #4 |
( And another little pondering, off topic, but i'm not sure it deserves a whole thread : since when is there a television in Bart's lab? )
I'll have to give the bigger question a good think, but I assumed the screen in Bart's lab was a computer, and that Moriarty (or someone using his picture as a cover) had shown he or they could take over ALL communication channels, which makes them a major, major threat even if they are not Moriarty.
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"Oh, you meant 'spectacularly ignorant' in a NICE way."
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Posted by NatureNoHumansNo March 13, 2015 8:53 pm | #5 |
so, it would have been a hacking of every internet access providers worldwide.. why not, but wow!!
( it's really getting off topic, maybe it deserves a whole thread, finally ;) )
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Posted by Lola Red March 13, 2015 9:43 pm | #6 |
Hmmm, maybe Moriarty suddenly “disappeared” as far as the public is concerned. That might fuel theories that he is dead or just plainly in hiding. The confusion lets me belief that there was no body found on the roof of Bart’s. The thing that bother’s me is that Mycroft would have noticed that no body had been recovered, unless he observed Moriarty’s network recover the “corpse”. In that case we have to assume that the network knew Moriarty was on the roof, but had orders to stay away and not interfere in any case. Something about all of this is very fishy…
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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.
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Posted by tehanu March 13, 2015 11:29 pm | #7 |
Thank you all.
Hmmm, maybe Moriarty suddenly “disappeared” as far as the public is concerned. That might fuel theories that he is dead or just plainly in hiding. The confusion lets me belief that there was no body found on the roof of Bart’s
Yes that seems more likely. Still, Both the fangirl and Anderson think Moriarty was with Sherlock on the roof. Here is one convoluted idea how: from the texts Sherlock and Moriarty sent each other, which the police later found in Sherlock's phone. Which apparently didn't have explosives inside 
. Any easier, more plausible way this piece of information could have gotten out and about?
My problem now is like this: doesn't John suffer so much largely because he feels guilty? He did say "you machine". Perhaps this is unnecessary, but it seemed to me that there was this extra level of hurt there: the notion that he pushed Sherlock, and that is the reason TRF feels SO hopeless and black.
But if John feels guilty in part for Sherlock's jump, then he can't know Moriarty was there (I think). So the police didn't tell him. So somebody, logically Anderson, actually leaked it to the Empty Hearse but not to John.
Please tear this apart because thanks to you people I actually feel I may finally understand this amazing show (again).
Something about all of this is very fishy…
Isn't it.
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Posted by Lola Red March 14, 2015 12:02 am | #8 |
Oh interesting one. That the phone had been found by the police is not unlikely. Maybe it was not investigated at the time, because the suicide seemed so obvious. Or someone (likely Mycroft or Moriarty’s people) could have held on to it and send it to Anderson at some point. Maybe that was what set off the clearing of Sherlock’s name (Mycroft preparing the stage for his brother’s return?). Maybe no one listened to Anderson when he tried to tell people about the messages on the phone; after all, he was by then likely half crazed by guilt and had recently lost his job. Who would believe him, but his fellow theorists at the Empty Hearse? Anderson also would likely not dare to approach John and even if he tried to, I do not think that John would treat him kindly or let him speak as he had a role in Sherlock’s apparent suicide. So what you are saying does not seem unlikely to me a t the moment.
I don’t think anyone knew that Moriarty was on that roof, except from Sherlock, Mycroft and Moriarty’s network (maybe Molly too, depending on how much the Holmes brothers told her). Otherwise there would have been more doubt about Sherlock committing suicide and that seems to be more of an underdog idea at the beginning of TEH.
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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.
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Posted by OnlyinWestwood March 14, 2015 1:43 pm | #9 |
Good discussion here! I was wondering about the gif & why certain people reacted the way they did. For example: Mrs. Hudson. When did she actually come face to face with Moriarty? When he came for tea, he let himself in. She didn't appear to be around. She may have seen his face in the paper, but her reaction to him, on screen, was total panic! Wouldn't her reaction (having not met him), been a little more bewildered, as opposed to panic?
Did she know him?! Was his criminal network somehow linked to Mr. Hudson's trouble? (Maybe that was too long in the past)
Mary sort of paniced too. I have a feeling she was working for Moriarty.
Even Molly didn't exactly panic as much as Mrs. Hudson; and she knew more about him, at least.
Can't wait for the Christmas special where all will be revealed! (In Victorian times though?)
???
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Posted by tehanu March 14, 2015 2:36 pm | #10 |
(In Victorian times though?)
Theatre? LARP? Film? Oh the possibilities.
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Posted by NatureNoHumansNo March 15, 2015 10:09 pm | #11 |
What would be the point of airing the gif on each and every screens in England if the public didn't assume Moriarty is dead? And if the public assumes he is alive, then Moriarty must be considered guilty for the charges in the trial...
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Posted by tehanu March 24, 2015 5:04 pm | #12 |
What would be the point of airing the gif on each and every screens in England if the public didn't assume Moriarty is dead? And if the public assumes he is alive, then Moriarty must be considered guilty for the charges in the trial...
If a while ago he just disappeared without a trace, then the point of the gif would be to alarm people by making them think (or possibly letting them know) that he is back. It doesn't have to be from the dead. And he was acquitted at the trial. People might think he was guilty and the verdict was ridiculous but he can't be tried again for the same crimes right? He could be for the Richard Brook deception and for framing Sherlock maybe, with lots and lots of evidence but they would have to catch him first.
