Mary – the subject of discussion

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Posted by mrshouse
February 9, 2015 11:57 am
#181

Well, I have to agree that she probably didn't have much of a choice here. But that's also the point: she didn't have a choice. Meaning she didn't actively step back because she felt that her beloved husband needed his time to sort things out. She literally had no choice. And after she has realized it personally I see little of her to make up. She speaks of John not loving her anymore. She meets him in a snarky manner after months of silence and quiet consideration. After the reconsiliation she gets in snark mode again, not letting the father of her baby naming his daughter. I have a hard time to see all this as wanting to earn the love of a good man.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 
Posted by SusiGo
February 9, 2015 12:03 pm
#182

Yes to all that. 
She did have a choice once but that was long before all that happened. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 
Posted by Vhanja
February 9, 2015 12:06 pm
#183

I see it a bit differently. She did give John the space and time he needed to come to terms with it and decide if he wanted to forgive her or not (something Sherlock didn't, btw). It must have been really tough waiting for months, while pregnant, not knowing if your husband and the father of your child will take her back or not.

And she cries with relief when he does take her back, acknowledging without any hesitation that he will still be mad at her and that this issue will still be brought up between them. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 
Posted by SusiGo
February 9, 2015 12:08 pm
#184

The last thing we see is John's shocked face after Sherlock collapses in the flat. We never see her offering or understanding anything. This is pure speculation. What we see, however, is her starting to bicker the very moment she thinks John has forgiven her. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 
Posted by mrshouse
February 9, 2015 12:12 pm
#185

No, I don't agree here. John took his time, not Mary was the one giving it to him because she respected this need. She couldn't do anything else. I agree it must have been hard for her, no doubt ( for me it would be hell, impatient me ) but the less I understand the screenwriting to make her all snarky and belittle the "aw romantic" reconciliation with the closing bickering.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 
Posted by Vhanja
February 9, 2015 12:17 pm
#186

Well, she could. She could keep nagigng him if she wanted to. From the dialogue it seems she didn't. 

But we've discussed this before recently. I think the conclusion, as I see it, is that our interpretation of her behaviour is filtered through our view on the character to begin with. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 
Posted by SusiGo
February 9, 2015 12:21 pm
#187

Yes and no. I try to keep strictly to what I see and hear where Mary is concerned. And we do not get any hint that she waited patiently, just that they did not talk for months. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 
Posted by Lola Red
February 9, 2015 2:35 pm
#188

If we keep it strictly to the facts, we know very little about what happened in the months between Sherlock’s collapse and Christmas. We know Sherlock spend part of that time in hospital and we know the Watsons have not been talking much form Mummy’s and Mary’s comments, respectively. Everything else concerning that time is indeed pure speculation. The only thing we can do if we want to discuss about it is to make educated guesses based on our understanding of all the involved characters. Depending of our preliminary understanding of the character(s) we will end up with different scenario’s which we deem “most likely”. I think it is very hard to interpret something we have not been shown, without getting a bit more in detail about the characters motivation.
Personally, I think it was indeed John who “took his time” to figure things out. We know since TEH that John has to work through issues before he can forgive. For Mary, the time waiting for a “verdict” must have been hell. I already laid out my guess of what might have been going on in her head and I would not be surprised if the lash-out we see at Christmas was not the first one. But both her and Sherlock seem to have handed the reins to John in the matter of forgiving her. To get back to gently69’s point, I think as far as Mary was concerned, she had lost John the moment Sherlock revealed his “trick” to her in Leinster Garden’s. She seems convinced that as soon as John would know the whole truth of what is hidden in that USB stick (I will just assume there was evidence on there for now), he would stop loving her for good. She cannot hope for his love, but she can still hope that he and Sherlock will help her (and the child), so she stick around and waits.
Her behaviour after the reconciliation to me seems very much in line of what we see between her and John in TEH, this bantering seems to be how they interact. So her going straight back to it seems to me to be an attempt to restore somewhat of a normality between them.
 


****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    
 
Posted by lil
February 9, 2015 4:10 pm
#189

Yes , Theres a lot we don't know , but what we do know is not good.
Her ' Oh are we talking now' comment , didn't seem patient or accepting of the long silence.
Does she deserve the benefit of the doubt or any trust for a second time..or is it third in SO4....?
Who would trust Mary with their family or friends....?

 
Posted by Schmiezi
February 9, 2015 4:38 pm
#190

Lola Red wrote:

Her behaviour after the reconciliation to me seems very much in line of what we see between her and John in TEH, this bantering seems to be how they interact. So her going straight back to it seems to me to be an attempt to restore somewhat of a normality between them.
 

I wish I were better at posting screenshots ... Because if you look at John's face during the bickering in TEH and during the "forgiveness" scene in HLV, there is a huge difference in how he looks. And I doubt that Martin I-can-do-that-line-with-a-look Freeman did that accidentially or just forgot to look happy.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 
Posted by tonnaree
February 9, 2015 5:04 pm
#191

Schmiezi wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

Her behaviour after the reconciliation to me seems very much in line of what we see between her and John in TEH, this bantering seems to be how they interact. So her going straight back to it seems to me to be an attempt to restore somewhat of a normality between them.
 

I wish I were better at posting screenshots ... Because if you look at John's face during the bickering in TEH and during the "forgiveness" scene in HLV, there is a huge difference in how he looks. And I doubt that Martin I-can-do-that-line-with-a-look Freeman did that accidentially or just forgot to look happy.

Agreed.   You can see so much in Martin's face and knowing how expert he is I can't believe what we see is not intentional.
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 
Posted by Lola Red
February 9, 2015 5:53 pm
#192

tonnaree wrote:

Schmiezi wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

Her behaviour after the reconciliation to me seems very much in line of what we see between her and John in TEH, this bantering seems to be how they interact. So her going straight back to it seems to me to be an attempt to restore somewhat of a normality between them.
 

I wish I were better at posting screenshots ... Because if you look at John's face during the bickering in TEH and during the "forgiveness" scene in HLV, there is a huge difference in how he looks. And I doubt that Martin I-can-do-that-line-with-a-look Freeman did that accidentially or just forgot to look happy.

Agreed.   You can see so much in Martin's face and knowing how expert he is I can't believe what we see is not intentional.
 

Slight misunderstanding. I did not mean that there was an immediate return to normality, merely an attempt of one of the two parties to get some aspects of that past normality back. I doubt that their relationship will ever be again as it once was. John might be able to forgive, but I would be very much surprised if he would ever forget.
 


****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    
 
Posted by Liberty
February 9, 2015 6:01 pm
#193

I wonder why it took John so long?  I know it's a very big thing to forgive, but you'd think he might know quite early on if he was going to be able to or not.  Was it the imminent arrival of the baby that pushed him to make a decision?  (In a way that seems cruel, although I don't think it's meant to be at al - just that a heavily pregnant Mary is even more vulnerable than she was a few months ago.  If she was going to make an escape, if John rejected her, then the sooner the better).   On the other hand, if John's decision is part of a plot, you'd expect him to have made the speech sooner, I think? 

Maybe I'm overthinking - it might be just that it was written to tie into the Christmas setting of the finale. 

 
Posted by Schmiezi
February 9, 2015 6:05 pm
#194

Liberty wrote:

Maybe I'm overthinking - it might be just that it was written to tie into the Christmas setting of the finale. 

I don't have an answer to your question, just one thought:

The writers have planned the entire series before writing it. If they wanted the "forgiveness" scene to take place at Christmas, but with John making the decision sooner, they could have altered the timeline in several places.

So no, you suely are not overthinking here.
 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 
Posted by mrshouse
February 9, 2015 6:46 pm
#195

Maybe the Christmas setting was just supposed to add to the joy of reconciliation.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 
Posted by SusiGo
February 9, 2015 6:54 pm
#196

mrshouse wrote:

Maybe the Christmas setting was just supposed to add to the joy of reconciliation.

Do I detect a hint of irony? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 
Posted by mrshouse
February 9, 2015 6:57 pm
#197

You know me for real.....


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 
Posted by Vhanja
February 9, 2015 6:58 pm
#198

I think it's fair that the fireplace scene wasn't necessarily a very happy moment for John. I know a lot of people think that is the scene where John forgave her. That is not how I view it. I view that scene as John telling Mary that he has chosen to start the process of forgiving her and re-building their relationship and life together.

Thus, it's more a moment of choice and determination, not the moment when all is forgiven and forgotten. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 
Posted by mrshouse
February 9, 2015 7:00 pm
#199

Interesting take, I must think about that.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 
Posted by Vhanja
February 9, 2015 7:06 pm
#200

To me, it's the most obvious when he says that he is "basically stilled pissed off" with her and that "it will come out every now and then". That tells me that he hasn't forgiven and he most certainly hasn't forgotten. But he won't pry in her past, and as long as she is open and honest with him in the future, he is willing to go down the road of forgivness with her.

That is how I interpret that scene.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 


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