BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Mary – the subject of discussion

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 2:18 pm

For bringing the gun with her: I do believe she might have used it, as I said before, I think she was extremely dangerous during that time. This is why Sherlock had to take control over the situation, even in his weakened state. But I don’t think she was likely to just enter the building and just open fire. I don’t think Sherlock would have put John at such a risk, by placing him in his chair. I think there were several scenarios, at least in Mary’s mind, in which this confrontation could have ended. And to come back to the USB stick, that might have been an alternative scenario, but so might have been killing Sherlock, if he had refused to guarantee his silence.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 2, 2015 2:19 pm

Lola: I do not think that John forms a threat for Mary as long as he stays with her. Therefore Sherlock does everything to ensure he does, including inviting her to his parents. Not the best solution if you ask me but exactly the way Sherlock is thinking. Protecting John at all cost.

Swanpride: Sorry, but for me everyone trying to shoot the protagonist for selfish reasons is a very dark grey at most.
And giving Mary no other choice? What exactly does that mean? Is there any possible situation in which Mary would be justified to shoot him?

**Posted by Zatoichi** February 2, 2015 2:23 pm

Lola Red wrote:
For bringing the gun with her: I do believe she might have used it, as I said before, I think she was extremely dangerous during that time. This is why Sherlock had to take control over the situation, even in his weakened state. But I don’t think she was likely to just enter the building and just open fire. I don’t think Sherlock would have put John at such a risk, by placing him in his chair. I think there were several scenarios, at least in Mary’s mind, in which this confrontation could have ended. And to come back to the USB stick, that might have been an alternative scenario, but so might have been killing Sherlock, if he had refused to guarantee his silence.

Your post just made me think.. do you think there might have been another choice for Sherlock to keep all three save as he vowed to do except almost forcing Mary back into their relationship?

**Posted by mrshouse** February 2, 2015 2:24 pm

Nice analogy btw: handing John to Mary and his heart failing, but that's another thread I suppose.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 2, 2015 2:26 pm

Indeed. How very symbolic.

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 2:28 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Because plan A was to make Sherlock believe that she actually would shot him? Or because she wanted to have the option to do so if he didn't give her any other choice? It was certainly not her favourite solution, because in this case, she could have gotten in earlier and easier.

Those are explanations, but I agree with Susi. They don't shed a positive light on Mary I'm afraid.

Does there have to be a positive light? I feel it's more about making her actions understandable than justifying them. Even a character like Magnussen has a logic that one can follow, but that does not necessarily make him more likeable. I felt it was more about making sense of what we see on screen with all the sudden turns and big leaps. And that can be done from different points of view, ranging from staring with Mary as a pitch-black character to all different shades of grey.

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 2:29 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Nice analogy btw: handing John to Mary and his heart failing, but that's another thread I suppose.

SusiGo wrote:
Indeed. How very symbolic.

A Johnlocker's dream...

**Posted by Liberty** February 2, 2015 2:30 pm

I like the idea of Mary bringing the memory stick to negotiate with Sherlock. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for her to have it on her. And it kind of goes with the gun (plan B again - if Sherlock wouldn't co-operate, she might have threatened him again, at the least). The gun actually makes perfect sense - she would not go into an unknown situation like that unarmed (even John carries weapons sometimes in potentially dodgy situations!). But it's nice to have a sort of explanation for the memory stick too.

Last edited by Liberty (February 2, 2015 2:43 pm)

**Posted by mrshouse** February 2, 2015 2:32 pm

The difference is: neither CAM nor Moriarty ( nor great baddies like Darth Vader or Lord Voldemort) were supposed to be likeable. I would very much enjoy Mary being a great villain and greatly love every single shudder she certainly could give me, I love great baddies! At least this thread helped me to see some logics in her deeds, but I'm still lost as having her a likeable person as she caused my boys so much pain.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 2, 2015 2:32 pm

I see what you mean, Lola and Liberty. But still - what did Mary expect to achieve with the stick? If the contents were so bad that John would stop loving her if read them, how could she expect Sherlock to accept this knowledge and encourage John to stay with her?

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 2:39 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
For bringing the gun with her: I do believe she might have used it, as I said before, I think she was extremely dangerous during that time. This is why Sherlock had to take control over the situation, even in his weakened state. But I don’t think she was likely to just enter the building and just open fire. I don’t think Sherlock would have put John at such a risk, by placing him in his chair. I think there were several scenarios, at least in Mary’s mind, in which this confrontation could have ended. And to come back to the USB stick, that might have been an alternative scenario, but so might have been killing Sherlock, if he had refused to guarantee his silence.

Your post just made me think.. do you think there might have been another choice for Sherlock to keep all three save as he vowed to do except almost forcing Mary back into their relationship?

Interesting question. It seemed to me he left the decision to continue the relationship mostly up to John. If Mary would have accepted a “I will help you as a client, but I will divorce you as my wife” or spiralled back to being a loose cannon depends on whether she is more motivated by “no one can know” or by “I cannot loose John”.

**Posted by Liberty** February 2, 2015 2:41 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I see what you mean, Lola and Liberty. But still - what did Mary expect to achieve with the stick? If the contents were so bad that John would stop loving her if read them, how could she expect Sherlock to accept this knowledge and encourage John to stay with her?

Good question. They're different people, and Sherlock's morality is not mainstream (even though I think he's very moral). So it's possible that there was stuff there that Mary might think Sherlock would find acceptable, but not John. (I keep thinking of the Billy Kincaid story - Sherlock thought he was a good man because the lives he saved outweighed the lives he took - it's quite possible that Mary's assassinations were similar. But John - and most of the rest of us - might find that point of view difficult to see).

The other thing is if there was something personal about John there - for instance, Mary being a plant and having courted him as an agent. Sherlock might be able to recognise that she had then genuinely fallen for him (he has had some experience of that with Irene too), but John might find the whole thing difficult to accept.

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 2:45 pm

mrshouse wrote:
The difference is: neither CAM nor Moriarty ( nor great baddies like Darth Vader or Lord Voldemort) were supposed to be likeable. I would very much enjoy Mary being a great villain and greatly love every single shudder she certainly could give me, I love great baddies! At least this thread helped me to see some logics in her deeds, but I'm still lost as having her a likeable person as she caused my boys so much pain.

Yes but is Mary still supposed to be unquestionably likable? If yes, I fear TPTB have messed up big time. I felt we were supposed to be relieved that she is not as boring, bothersome and disruptive of our favourite dynamic as we feared she might be, only to have the rug pulled out under our feet and left with a feeling of “I don’t understand”

**Posted by mrshouse** February 2, 2015 2:49 pm

Lola Red wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
The difference is: neither CAM nor Moriarty ( nor great baddies like Darth Vader or Lord Voldemort) were supposed to be likeable. I would very much enjoy Mary being a great villain and greatly love every single shudder she certainly could give me, I love great baddies! At least this thread helped me to see some logics in her deeds, but I'm still lost as having her a likeable person as she caused my boys so much pain.
Yes but is Mary still supposed to be unquestionably likable? If yes, I fear TPTB have messed up big time. I felt we were supposed to be relieved that she is not as boring, bothersome and disruptive of our favourite dynamic as we feared she might be, only to have the rug pulled out under our feet and left with a feeling of “I don’t understand”

Lola, I'm afraid on the long run she is set up as a likeable character. And for the not being divisive: yes, one is lulled into that in TEH and TsoT, but most definitely not in HLV. Holding hands with John in the red coat is for me a visualization of John's and Sherlock's separation.

**Posted by Schmiezi** February 2, 2015 2:54 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
The difference is: neither CAM nor Moriarty ( nor great baddies like Darth Vader or Lord Voldemort) were supposed to be likeable. I would very much enjoy Mary being a great villain and greatly love every single shudder she certainly could give me, I love great baddies! At least this thread helped me to see some logics in her deeds, but I'm still lost as having her a likeable person as she caused my boys so much pain.
Yes but is Mary still supposed to be unquestionably likable? If yes, I fear TPTB have messed up big time. I felt we were supposed to be relieved that she is not as boring, bothersome and disruptive of our favourite dynamic as we feared she might be, only to have the rug pulled out under our feet and left with a feeling of “I don’t understand”

Lola, I'm afraid on the long run she is set up as a likeable character. And for the not being divisive: yes, one is lulled into that in TEH and TsoT, but most definitely not in HLV. Holding hands with John in the red coat is for me a visualization of John's and Sherlock's separation.

I disagree with you on that one, mrshouse. I think Mary is not meant to be likeable from HLV on. And just to make it clear once more: I like her very much - if I consider her to be a black character, a baddie.

**Posted by mrshouse** February 2, 2015 2:58 pm

I would very much appreciate that, Schmiezi, as I said, I love great and charismatic baddies!
So the visuals of the tarmac scene are supposed to leave us back deeply frustrated about Mary having " won"? Well, we'll see...

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 3:00 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I see what you mean, Lola and Liberty. But still - what did Mary expect to achieve with the stick? If the contents were so bad that John would stop loving her if read them, how could she expect Sherlock to accept this knowledge and encourage John to stay with her?

I’m not saying it is the best thought through plan in history. But it is the only thing she could offer in exchange for his silence (except for a bullet to the brain). It is a less foolish character move than randomly carrying that thing around and better story telling than it just being a plot device. And I am aware that it is not actually told.
So basically you can say I want to believe in the Moftiss as good writers who are above such a cheap trick, and I just grab the most plausible explanation offered to me that allows me to keep indulging in my fantasy. It might very well just be lazy writing; I just want to keep believing it is more.

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 3:08 pm

mrshouse wrote:
So the visuals of the tarmac scene are supposed to leave us back deeply frustrated about Mary having " won"? Well, we'll see...

On most other shows I might be able to dismiss such a scene, but in a show as careful about it’s visuals as Sherlock I cannot bring myself to believe that it is all just accidental. It is not just one shot; too, it’s the whole scene that feels “off”. Mary’s outfit, that strange distance between Sherlock and John. I would be very surprised if it turns out that it all means nothing, but you're right: we’ll see.

Last edited by Lola Red (February 2, 2015 3:26 pm)

**Posted by Lola Red** February 2, 2015 3:26 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
Yes but is Mary still supposed to be unquestionably likable? If yes, I fear TPTB have messed up big time. I felt we were supposed to be relieved that she is not as boring, bothersome and disruptive of our favourite dynamic as we feared she might be, only to have the rug pulled out under our feet and left with a feeling of “I don’t understand”

Lola, I'm afraid on the long run she is set up as a likeable character. And for the not being divisive: yes, one is lulled into that in TEH and TsoT, but most definitely not in HLV. Holding hands with John in the red coat is for me a visualization of John's and Sherlock's separation.
I disagree with you on that one, mrshouse. I think Mary is not meant to be likeable from HLV on. And just to make it clear once more: I like her very much - if I consider her to be a black character, a baddie.

mrshouse wrote:
I would very much appreciate that, Schmiezi, as I said, I love great and charismatic baddies!

I have a hard time with a binary distribution of characters into black and white, or good and bad. But on a grey scale I would put Mary pretty close to for example Irene. They are actually not dissimilar in certain ways. Both do horrible things, both have an underlying fear of being exposed to their enemies, both form a connection to Sherlock, both betray him. He eventually outwits both of them, making their greatest fears come true and then goes on to rescue them. Of cause there are also plenty of differences, e.g. Mary is primarily attracted to John, while Irene is all about Sherlock (I’m not saying that Sherlock wants her to make him beg for mercy…twice), but there are certain parallels. "That Wife" and "The Woman" if you want.

Last edited by Lola Red (February 2, 2015 3:28 pm)

**Posted by mrshouse** February 2, 2015 3:30 pm

I see what bothers you, and I certainly didn't want to say I'm a shallow character who needs only spelled out blacks or whites, not at all.
But you're German, too, aren't you? Our word of " not fish, not flesh" maybe sums it up a bit better.