BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / The deleted scene (special edition)

**Posted by SolarSystem** November 1, 2014 10:19 pm

Whisky, you make some good points, although I'm not sure I would agree that Sherlock isn't really affected by the fireplace scene. He might not be affected for us to see, but looking back on it we now know that something certainly has thrown him off track there. There certainly were things he should have payed more attention to... but he didn't. Redbeard. He seemed irritated for a second when CAM mentioned the name, but then Sherlock seemed to forget about it again. Shouldn't he have been far more suspicious the moment CAM mentioned that name?

**Posted by lil** November 1, 2014 10:21 pm

Maybe the whole show is mindpalace....a sad but artistic reflection of life being just a dream.....

or is it?

**Posted by Liberty** November 1, 2014 10:22 pm

Yes, yes, he should be more suspicious. Yet he still acts as if CAM thinks drugs are his main pressure point. That must be for John's benefit - he's kind of lying to John there. Perhaps because "Redbeard" tells him that he's going into something darker and more dangerous than he'd anticipated.

@lil - LOL .

Last edited by Liberty (November 1, 2014 10:23 pm)

**Posted by This Is The Phantom Lady** November 1, 2014 10:23 pm

I suppose it was left out because it was superfluous since we already established that CAM is incredibly creepy and has a power over Sherlock.

But thank goodness for them releasing it anyway

As for the drips, I've even seen kids push them along on the ward

**Posted by stoertebeker** November 1, 2014 10:25 pm

Regarding the restaurant scene: This is Sherlock Holmes we are talking about. Sherlock didn't bother sitting in Buckingham Palace dressed just in a sheet. I suppose he also wouldn't give a damm strolling through London in a hospital gown. Besides Sherlock is a very famous person so he would probably have no problem to order something in the restaurant, even in his unusual dress.

Last edited by stoertebeker (November 1, 2014 10:29 pm)

**Posted by Whisky** November 1, 2014 10:26 pm

Maybe Sherlock just doesn't realise that his emotions are such a pressure point. When Magnusson mentions Redbeard, maybe Sherlock just thought a) ouch, bad memory and b) how does he know that.
I'm not sure he understands that it could be a hint. A deliberate pointing to a weakness he has.
Because when Mycroft mentions Redbeard during the phonecall at the wedding, Sherlock also doesn't take him really serious. He understands the implication, but he kind of shrugs it off.
Maybe that's what he did with Magnusson in the flat, too.

It could of course also be that Sherlock absolutely understands the hint, but chooses not to linger on it, because it will affect him and keep him from working properly. Because I feel sometimes Sherlock does that, pushing things away he cannot really confront - because he hasn't got an idea how, or the timing is bad.
That's what he also does with John when John is coming back. I'm not sure he really believes John is still in Baker Street. It feels more like a thing he told himself to not have to face the idea that his life, that he had to leave behind, isn't there anymore for him. He isn't that good in confronting his fears. Hounds would be another example of that.

@lil: yes I'm slowly arriving at the same conclusion :D

Last edited by Whisky (November 1, 2014 10:33 pm)

**Posted by Mattlocked** November 1, 2014 10:28 pm

stoertebeker wrote:
Regarding the restaurant scene: This is Sherlock Holmes we are talking about. Sherlock didn't bother sitting in Buchingham Palace dressed just in a sheet. I suppose he also wouldn't give a damm strolling through London in a hospital gown. Besides Sherlock is a very famous person so he would probably have no problem to order something in the restaurant, even in his unusual dress.

Good point.

**Posted by Liberty** November 1, 2014 10:31 pm

Maybe, Whisky. I just feel there was something off about the whole drugs thing ... it wasn't really news that Sherlock might have used drugs and it wasn't something that would shame him, ruin his career or drive him to suicide - why would Sherlock think that it was a weakness worth bothering about? It does work as a way to draw Magnusson in, though, similar to how publicising himself in TRF drew Moriarty in.

Last edited by Liberty (November 1, 2014 10:31 pm)

**Posted by stoertebeker** November 1, 2014 10:33 pm

I also think, due to his status of being a celebrity, Sherlock being in hospital would be a big news in the press (before Janine's revenge ). That's how Irene may have found out.

**Posted by SolarSystem** November 1, 2014 10:36 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
stoertebeker wrote:
Regarding the restaurant scene: This is Sherlock Holmes we are talking about. Sherlock didn't bother sitting in Buchingham Palace dressed just in a sheet. I suppose he also wouldn't give a damm strolling through London in a hospital gown. Besides Sherlock is a very famous person so he would probably have no problem to order something in the restaurant, even in his unusual dress.

Good point.

I agree, very good point!

**Posted by besleybean** November 1, 2014 10:39 pm

Yes...
So you see why I really think this happened?

**Posted by Whisky** November 1, 2014 10:42 pm

Liberty wrote:
Maybe, Whisky. I just feel there was something off about the whole drugs thing ... it wasn't really news that Sherlock might have used drugs and it wasn't something that would shame him, ruin his career or drive him to suicide - why would Sherlock think that it was a weakness worth bothering about? It does work as a way to draw Magnusson in, though, similar to how publicising himself in TRF drew Moriarty in.

I'm never really sure what are Sherlock's own habits and what is just for show. It also gives me headaches to think about it for longer ;)
I don't think Sherlock thinks of drugs as a weakness. He just thinks others will see it that way. So that's something he plays up for his own uses, but Redbeard, that's something he chooses not to show but Magnusson discovers it anyway - it's a *real* weakness compared to the drugs, because Sherlock himself feels uncomfortable about it.

**Posted by Liberty** November 1, 2014 10:44 pm

@ Besley, I think it did really happen. He seems so vulnerable in that scene, and the hospital gown adds to it, especially with Magnusson so immaculately dressed. And Sherlock physically looking through the glasses before he realises that they aren't a portable Appledore is a nice set up for him having to physically see an empty room before he truly realises there are no vaults.

@ Whisky, yes I wrote that badly - I was thinking about whether Sherlock though it was a weakness that Magnusson would bother with. What use would it be to Magnusson, if publicising it wouldn't affect Sherlock? I'm even surprised that John falls for it. Well, falls for it twice - doesn't believe Sherlock that it's a case when it is, and then believes Magnusson thinks it's Sherlock's pressure point, when it's not the one he'd think of using.

Last edited by Liberty (November 1, 2014 10:48 pm)

**Posted by besleybean** November 1, 2014 10:47 pm

The over arching Redbeard theme is(as Mycroft brutally points out)Sherlock gets into scrapes when it involves those he loves...be it Redbeard or John.
So CAM 1st revelas he knows as a child Redbeard was the one Sherlock loved and now as an adult, he can use Sherlock's love of John as a pressure point...

**Posted by Whisky** November 1, 2014 10:52 pm

besleybean wrote:
The over arching Redbeard theme is(as Mycroft brutally points out)Sherlock gets into scrapes when it involves those he loves...be it Redbeard or John.
So CAM 1st revelas he knows as a child Redbeard was the one Sherlock loved and now as an adult, he can use Sherlock's love of John as a pressure point...

But if Sherlock understood that, he would have gotten an idea about what is going to happen, in the moment Magnusson mentions Redbeard. He doesn't... He seems quite sure he is playing the game, not Magnusson. In the exact moment where Magnusson mentions Redbeard, Sherlock should at least immediately make the bonfire connection - and then start thinking about Mary and John and where that leaves him.

Last edited by Whisky (November 1, 2014 10:53 pm)

**Posted by Mattlocked** November 1, 2014 10:53 pm

Liberty wrote:
@ Besley, I think it did really happen. He seems so vulnerable in that scene, and the hospital gown adds to it, especially with Magnusson so immaculately dressed. And Sherlock physically looking through the glasses before he realises that they aren't a portable Appledore is a nice set up for him having to physically see an empty room before he truly realises there are no vaults.
.....

This is probably exactly the point why I would prefer it to be a mind palace scene. I don't like the idea of Sherlock being fooled by CAM all the time. I like the idea of him deducing it all by himself - in his mind palace.

**Posted by SolarSystem** November 1, 2014 11:04 pm

Whisky wrote:
besleybean wrote:
The over arching Redbeard theme is(as Mycroft brutally points out)Sherlock gets into scrapes when it involves those he loves...be it Redbeard or John.
So CAM 1st revelas he knows as a child Redbeard was the one Sherlock loved and now as an adult, he can use Sherlock's love of John as a pressure point...
But if Sherlock understood that, he would have gotten an idea about what is going to happen, in the moment Magnusson mentions Redbeard. He doesn't... He seems quite sure he is playing the game, not Magnusson. In the exact moment where Magnusson mentions Redbeard, Sherlock should at least immediately make the bonfire connection - and then start thinking about Mary and John and where that leaves him.

Yes, that's why I earlier wrote that he seems to miss something in the fireplace scene. He's only slightly irritated when CAM mentions Redbeard, and that's it. He always seems to be one step behind in that episode, he's not in power - which can be seen quite nicely in the deleted scene (among many others).

**Posted by Liberty** November 1, 2014 11:06 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
Lars Mikkelsen is a rather handsome man, and such a kind one too. Something I know first hand.... maybe that's why Magnussen creeps me out so, so much.

I sometimes feel physically unwell seeing CAM. This deleted scene only makes it worse to be honest

Well, Una calls him

Mr Gorgeous

in the commentary! (And the others talk about how lovely he is in real life). I think it was great casting. He's very goodlooking in an unusual way - he manages to be completely repulsive, but there's something seductive, sensual and mesmerising there too. I'm so glad we got to see a bit more of him in this scene!

Last edited by Liberty (November 1, 2014 11:33 pm)

**Posted by Whisky** November 1, 2014 11:16 pm

Liberty wrote:
@ Whisky, yes I wrote that badly - I was thinking about whether Sherlock though it was a weakness that Magnusson would bother with. What use would it be to Magnusson, if publicising it wouldn't affect Sherlock? I'm even surprised that John falls for it. Well, falls for it twice - doesn't believe Sherlock that it's a case when it is, and then believes Magnusson thinks it's Sherlock's pressure point, when it's not the one he'd think of using.

Yes, I agree. But then the question is - who is trying to affect whom? I think Magnusson isn't the one trying to get to Sherlock in the first place - Sherlock is really the one trying to get to Magnusson. Maybe he fed him information about his drug habit in some secret ways, hoping he would bite. I think he's testing grounds... and we never know if Magnusson really falls for the drug story. It's not clear who is the one with the upper hand. It's pretty much the cabbie game from ASiP: bluff? double bluff? ...

It would also be interesting to know what was the information Sherlock got - when he got so excited, when he thought he got Magnusson convinced. Was that about an article in a newspaper? It's not made obvious I think. So it could be something else just as well.

Last edited by Whisky (November 1, 2014 11:18 pm)

**Posted by Liberty** November 1, 2014 11:37 pm

I assumed it was about something being published in a newspaper (you mean when he gets the call in the lab?) i.e. that Magnusson was running the story. But in a way that doesn't make sense - it the story had already been run then there was no more mileage in it and Sherlock wouldn't expect Magnusson to think it would give him power over him.

I agree that Sherlock is the one trying to get to Magnusson ... but I think Magnusson is also looking for an excuse to get to Sherlock (because he wants to get to Mycroft). I don't think Magnusson ever falls for the drug story. He wants Sherlock to think that he does. I'm still not 100% sure about the bluff and double bluffs either.